Projecting Young’s Sophomore Season (Mina Kimes)

[strato]

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

It also appears (to me at least) his arm angle has changed a bit since the Arkansas game.

NFL Bryce throws more overhead versus pre Arkansas it was definitely more of a 3/4 arm angle

I watched the Florida game from 2021 yesterday and he threw 50 yards without really stepping into his throw. His arm definitely used to look a lot more lively. 
 

Yeah my main concern with Bryce was always his arm strength. The size didn’t bother me as much. It was always the arm. There just weren’t many NFL style boundary throws on his tape. 2021 Bryce used to be able to drive the ball much better 

He was putting everything he had into it too. He looks better now but what would Luke or Showboat Ray Lewis be thinking about facing him? 

[strato]

I messed up my quotation of CPF4LIFE but there it is now lol

Quote

I came on here multiple times and pointed how his 2021 tape wasn't the same as his 2022 tape

......snipped for quote.....

I cringed in the draft workout when had to get a running start just to throw a deep ball that wasn't accurate. I guess it really depends on the timing when you point things out you get called a hater. 

Yeah. I concur. That Pro day was eye opening. Running start was there.

See, I quit spending so much time on looking at NFL players for Panthers drafts until I just said, forget it. It doesn't matter what I think, and I don't really watch college ball any more and don't want to put time into it.

Point being I had no preconceptions from 2021 or even 2022 or any of it. No positive bias to reinforce what he did that day. And I decided that I needed to look, so I looked. That pro day, man. I couldn't believe people liked it. 

on that kind of level

Edited August 28 by strato

[CPF4LIFE]

3 hours ago, strato said:

I messed up my quotation of CPF4LIFE but there it is now lol

Yeah. I concur. That Pro day was eye opening. Running start was there.

See, I quit spending so much time on looking at NFL players for Panthers drafts until I just said, forget it. It doesn't matter what I think, and I don't really watch college ball any more and don't want to put time into it.

Point being I had no preconceptions from 2021 or even 2022 or any of it. No positive bias to reinforce what he did that day. And I decided that I needed to look, so I looked. That pro day, man. I couldn't believe people liked it. 

on that kind of level

Agreed

[CRA]

9 hours ago, Aussie Tank said:

The narrative changes weekly 

The narrative on Bryce is about as consistent as narrative’s get present day.  

Physical limitations.  Which forces him into specific areas of the field and throws….which Ds become aware of pretty quick. 

No change once it became the narrative 

[*FreeFua*]

In order for the Canales/Bryce marriage to work Bryce is going to have to prove that he is 1) willing to throw deep and 2) that he can throw deep

https://www.milehighreport.com/2024/3/8/24092154/2023-regular-season-passing-by-direction-and-distance#:~:text=Brock Purdy led the league,and completed 20 of them.
 

 

 

[CRA]

33 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

In order for the Canales/Bryce marriage to work Bryce is going to have to prove that he is 1) willing to throw deep and 2) that he can throw deep

https://www.milehighreport.com/2024/3/8/24092154/2023-regular-season-passing-by-direction-and-distance#:~:text=Brock Purdy led the league,and completed 20 of them.
 

 

 

you take the Baker/Tampa info, you compare it to the Geno/Seattle info and you compare it to the Wilson/Seattle info......and the ball consistently goes deep.  Often tops of the league. 

The pairing has never made sense.  And I really think they should of brought in an arm not named Andy Dalton given the mismatch on face value.  If you were intentionally going to pair up a bad combo....bring in a young guy that fits to also be developing. 

The big picture vision continues to be lacking in Carolina IMO. 

and Canales could be a GREAT rah rah guy.  That alone doesn't make a square peg go into a round hole. 

 

[*FreeFua*]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

you take the Baker/Tampa info, you compare it to the Geno/Seattle info and you compare it to the Wilson/Seattle info......and the ball consistently goes deep.  Often tops of the league. 

The pairing has never made sense.  And I really think they should of brought in an arm not named Andy Dalton given the mismatch on face value.  If you were intentionally going to pair up a bad combo....bring in a young guy that fits the also be developing. 

The big picture vision continues to be lacking in Carolina IMO. 

and Canales could be a GREAT rah rah guy.  That alone doesn't make a square peg go into a round hole. 

 

I would’ve liked to have seen Sam Howell brought in given the situation as a whole. Obviously would’ve had to bring someone in they could sell as a developmental guy and not someone threading for the starting job. They chose not to hurt Young’s confidence this offseason instead of finding a better fit at QB

I agree though neither Young or Dalton fit what Canales likes to do

[Icege]

11 hours ago, *FreeFua* said:

 

Had two morning meetings canceled so I'm doing Panthers-related summaries instead of being a good monkey.

• Mina thinks that it was interesting and had been dying to see the one drive Bryce put out because the offense for her has the most interesting questions of the 2024 NFL season. Not just because of the importance of developing/evaluating Bryce and giving him a shot; she finds Canales to be a little bit of a sypher coming from a lot of different offensive systems/coordinators in Seattle, Russell Wilson, different eras of different types of football and then going to Tampa where what he did with Baker was very different than what they did in Seattle at points. All of that leads to her wondering, "What is it going to look like?" and the way Canales sets Bryce up for success.
• She can't repeat enough that it was just once drive, but it also looked a hell of a lot better than last year.
• Started with the "nice stuff:" thought Bryce looked more decisive which was pretty significant because he seemed flabbergasted last year but also more comfortable/belief in the structure of the offense. He could trust that somebody will catch the ball when he throws it which was not a thing for him last year due to the skill players the team surrounded him with. Thought it was interesting that they kept him in the gun with a cpl attempts out of pistol while getting into play action out of both. Saw the offense pushing the ball downfield but felt that the offense was more condensed than she thought it would be. There was a lot of "Rams-y" DNA without the motions and what not.
• The Canales side worries Lenny. Young he thought was impressive but there isn't a jump-off-the-screen, secret sauce thing like he had at Bama. He thought he looked more confident and comfortable as well which is the #1 goal after his confidence was rocked following a Josh Rosen-level bad season last year. Canales may not be the philosopher, the play designer, or the play caller (all of the ingredients that go into running a quality offensive staff) but he's always been renowned as a guy that builds confidence as a good teacher/communicator almost like a glorified QBs coach. Lenny is worried with how hands on it appears that Canales is with building the offense and didn't love a lot of what he saw in that one drive. Reiterates Mina's mantra of "one drive, one game" and acknowledges that they're likely saving a bunch of stuff. Even with the making of what they're trying to run he felt like it was antithetical to putting Bryce in the best position to succeed.
• What is the "right" fit/best possible set-up for Bryce? Mina thinks that what makes this tricky is whether or not the team has the skill players to execute. What would Lenny do with those skill players and this QB? He thinks that things have to be as spread and wide open as possible #1 because Bryce is not a typical QB so he does not believe a typical system should be ran. Everything the team has said in the run-up to the season about running the ball and being a play-action heavy shot team is all well in good when you have an elite deep ball thrower with Wilson or Mayfield who they wanted to limit what he did with slants and catch-on-collisions and leaning on Mike Evans. Doesn't believe Bryce is going to win in the NFL with that style. Believes that he has to be given every opportunity to sit in the pocket and play Drew Brees football and then taking off when it isn't there. Brought up the PA shot play out of the diamond pistol formation (a staple of the Greg Roman era for Lamar Jackson). Thinks that those formations are wonderful in theory but that they're not great for Bryce because he thinks the QB has to be a true running threat for the numbers to work on it. Tampa ran more slants than anybody else in the NFL last season and Bryce was above average targeting slants so the team is likely building the offense around that. Lenny's problem isn't with the what but rather the how. Early in the game there was a throw to the slant that was combined with another target running to the flat. Perfect! But for the most part it was all at the sticks: slant/stick, slant/flat, static formations, 2x2, 3x1. That's Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning football. If the slant isn't there, Bryce is there to be a playmaker in the backfield that can move around and create. So what's the end goal if that's not there? They're scheming concept vs coverage like you would with Jared Goff, which is not what Lenny believes should be done when trying to evaluate whether or not a guy can be a special difference maker. Thinks that if a QB is traded up for at #1 that he should be able to win games on his own. Doesn't think the offense is going to allow Bryce to drop back 40 times a game in the gun to pick apart the defenses and create when the coverage beats the concept like he's good at, but instead is going to drop back 20 times or so and be forced to make 3 - 4 special plays.
• Mina emphasizes that the Drew Brees comparison isn't because they're both considered to be short QBs. One of the things that Brees did well was utilize the middle of the field which is something that a lot of short QBs struggle with, and Bryce despite being the shortest of the short QBs he still very capable of doing that as well. While at Bama he was able to put the ball in places over the middle of the field that would allow his receivers to get YAC because they were spreading it out and creating throwing lanes for him. She thinks that that should be the bread and butter with the offense and with Johnson and possibly Legette they might not have an explosive offense but a pretty damn efficient one. Doesn't want it to sound like she's damning Bryce with faint praise because a lot of QBs can't do that or struggle with (ie: Russel WIlson). If she's Canales and the staff, they don't want to build this entire thing off of play action shot plays like they do with Jared Goff. She also thinks that Bryce is aware of his arm strength and she thinks he opted to not take the throw to Johnson because that's not a club in his bag. She thinks that the goal again is not to be explosive but to be ruthlessly efficient and to hopefully run the ball well on top of that. She thinks that how they get there and whether they get there will determine whether this is a successful season for Bryce.
• Lenny gets in debates all of the time about the use of empty with young QBs. The Panthers were 24th in the NFL with Bryce Young as their QB last year in running plays out of empty formations and to Lenny that is, "complete coaching malpractice." Thinks that the team should be #1 by a good distance this season because it gives him the most options possible. Thinks that limiting the options and adding to the protection doesn't allow the team to find out whether or not he's a Baker Mayfield or something more special than that. If he's Baker, Lenny guesses that's good but that's not what they're going for. Thinks that they have to just expose him and find out where he'll be best playing in the NFL. He's good at attacking the middle of the field, setting up run after the catch, is a precise deep ball thrower but not a bomber. If he's not a bomber and they only have one person running deep that's an Anthony Richardson throw, not a Bryce Young throw. At Bama they had interconnecting switch routes down the field, two guys go safety freezes. It's about placement and timing, hitting the guy in stride down the field. It's not just this uncorking a back shoulder throw on a go ball like Aaron Rodgers, that's just not who Bryce is going to be.
• Mina likes the distinction between precise deep ball vs. a bomber because she doesn't want people listening to think Bryce has sub-par arm strength. She thinks he has enough arm strength to push the ball down the field but her point was that he's going to be discriminate about it (she adds that that's good that he's not going to turn the ball over a lot nor make ill-advised throws into too tight windows). They have to set him up to succeed and they need the young WRs + Diontae Johnson to be better than what the team had last season.
• Mina wrapping it up by being encouraged with the confidence he played with. That might sound lame, but she's talking confidence in the structure of the offense. Does he believe what he sees? Is he throwing the ball on time? Is he playing with the belief that a WR was going to break open? She saw all that, and we didn't see that last year which should be very encouraging for Panthers fans.
• Lenny points out that Bryce checked nearly every single play and was rattling through 3 - 4 plays every time at the LOS and resetting protections which he didn't do last season. Doing that is a confidence builder nor is it a normal thing that a new staff comes in with a QB (uses Goff again as a reference and how the Lions have approached making him just a cog in the machine).

[CRA]

14 minutes ago, Icege said:

Had two morning meetings canceled so I'm doing Panthers-related summaries instead of being a good monkey.

• Mina thinks that it was interesting and had been dying to see the one drive Bryce put out because the offense for her has the most interesting questions of the 2024 NFL season. Not just because of the importance of developing/evaluating Bryce and giving him a shot; she finds Canales to be a little bit of a sypher coming from a lot of different offensive systems/coordinators in Seattle, Russell Wilson, different eras of different types of football and then going to Tampa where what he did with Baker was very different than what they did in Seattle at points. All of that leads to her wondering, "What is it going to look like?" and the way Canales sets Bryce up for success.
• She can't repeat enough that it was just once drive, but it also looked a hell of a lot better than last year.
• Started with the "nice stuff:" thought Bryce looked more decisive which was pretty significant because he seemed flabbergasted last year but also more comfortable/belief in the structure of the offense. He could trust that somebody will catch the ball when he throws it which was not a thing for him last year due to the skill players the team surrounded him with. Thought it was interesting that they kept him in the gun with a cpl attempts out of pistol while getting into play action out of both. Saw the offense pushing the ball downfield but felt that the offense was more condensed than she thought it would be. There was a lot of "Rams-y" DNA without the motions and what not.
• The Canales side worries Lenny. Young he thought was impressive but there isn't a jump-off-the-screen, secret sauce thing like he had at Bama. He thought he looked more confident and comfortable as well which is the #1 goal after his confidence was rocked following a Josh Rosen-level bad season last year. Canales may not be the philosopher, the play designer, or the play caller (all of the ingredients that go into running a quality offensive staff) but he's always been renowned as a guy that builds confidence as a good teacher/communicator almost like a glorified QBs coach. Lenny is worried with how hands on it appears that Canales is with building the offense and didn't love a lot of what he saw in that one drive. Reiterates Mina's mantra of "one drive, one game" and acknowledges that they're likely saving a bunch of stuff. Even with the making of what they're trying to run he felt like it was antithetical to putting Bryce in the best position to succeed.
• What is the "right" fit/best possible set-up for Bryce? Mina thinks that what makes this tricky is whether or not the team has the skill players to execute. What would Lenny do with those skill players and this QB? He thinks that things have to be as spread and wide open as possible #1 because Bryce is not a typical QB so he does not believe a typical system should be ran. Everything the team has said in the run-up to the season about running the ball and being a play-action heavy shot team is all well in good when you have an elite deep ball thrower with Wilson or Mayfield who they wanted to limit what he did with slants and catch-on-collisions and leaning on Mike Evans. Doesn't believe Bryce is going to win in the NFL with that style. Believes that he has to be given every opportunity to sit in the pocket and play Drew Brees football and then taking off when it isn't there. Brought up the PA shot play out of the diamond pistol formation (a staple of the Greg Roman era for Lamar Jackson). Thinks that those formations are wonderful in theory but that they're not great for Bryce because he thinks the QB has to be a true running threat for the numbers to work on it. Tampa ran more slants than anybody else in the NFL last season and Bryce was above average targeting slants so the team is likely building the offense around that. Lenny's problem isn't with the what but rather the how. Early in the game there was a throw to the slant that was combined with another target running to the flat. Perfect! But for the most part it was all at the sticks: slant/stick, slant/flat, static formations, 2x2, 3x1. That's Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning football. If the slant isn't there, Bryce is there to be a playmaker in the backfield that can move around and create. So what's the end goal if that's not there? They're scheming concept vs coverage like you would with Jared Goff, which is not what Lenny believes should be done when trying to evaluate whether or not a guy can be a special difference maker. Thinks that if a QB is traded up for at #1 that he should be able to win games on his own. Doesn't think the offense is going to allow Bryce to drop back 40 times a game in the gun to pick apart the defenses and create when the coverage beats the concept like he's good at, but instead is going to drop back 20 times or so and be forced to make 3 - 4 special plays.
• Mina emphasizes that the Drew Brees comparison isn't because they're both considered to be short QBs. One of the things that Brees did well was utilize the middle of the field which is something that a lot of short QBs struggle with, and Bryce despite being the shortest of the short QBs he still very capable of doing that as well. While at Bama he was able to put the ball in places over the middle of the field that would allow his receivers to get YAC because they were spreading it out and creating throwing lanes for him. She thinks that that should be the bread and butter with the offense and with Johnson and possibly Legette they might not have an explosive offense but a pretty damn efficient one. Doesn't want it to sound like she's damning Bryce with faint praise because a lot of QBs can't do that or struggle with (ie: Russel WIlson). If she's Canales and the staff, they don't want to build this entire thing off of play action shot plays like they do with Jared Goff. She also thinks that Bryce is aware of his arm strength and she thinks he opted to not take the throw to Johnson because that's not a club in his bag. She thinks that the goal again is not to be explosive but to be ruthlessly efficient and to hopefully run the ball well on top of that. She thinks that how they get there and whether they get there will determine whether this is a successful season for Bryce.
• Lenny gets in debates all of the time about the use of empty with young QBs. The Panthers were 24th in the NFL with Bryce Young as their QB last year in running plays out of empty formations and to Lenny that is, "complete coaching malpractice." Thinks that the team should be #1 by a good distance this season because it gives him the most options possible. Thinks that limiting the options and adding to the protection doesn't allow the team to find out whether or not he's a Baker Mayfield or something more special than that. If he's Baker, Lenny guesses that's good but that's not what they're going for. Thinks that they have to just expose him and find out where he'll be best playing in the NFL. He's good at attacking the middle of the field, setting up run after the catch, is a precise deep ball thrower but not a bomber. If he's not a bomber and they only have one person running deep that's an Anthony Richardson throw, not a Bryce Young throw. At Bama they had interconnecting switch routes down the field, two guys go safety freezes. It's about placement and timing, hitting the guy in stride down the field. It's not just this uncorking a back shoulder throw on a go ball like Aaron Rodgers, that's just not who Bryce is going to be.
• Mina likes the distinction between precise deep ball vs. a bomber because she doesn't want people listening to think Bryce has sub-par arm strength. She thinks he has enough arm strength to push the ball down the field but her point was that he's going to be discriminate about it (she adds that that's good that he's not going to turn the ball over a lot nor make ill-advised throws into too tight windows). They have to set him up to succeed and they need the young WRs + Diontae Johnson to be better than what the team had last season.
• Mina wrapping it up by being encouraged with the confidence he played with. That might sound lame, but she's talking confidence in the structure of the offense. Does he believe what he sees? Is he throwing the ball on time? Is he playing with the belief that a WR was going to break open? She saw all that, and we didn't see that last year which should be very encouraging for Panthers fans.
• Lenny points out that Bryce checked nearly every single play and was rattling through 3 - 4 plays every time at the LOS and resetting protections which he didn't do last season. Doing that is a confidence builder nor is it a normal thing that a new staff comes in with a QB (uses Goff again as a reference and how the Lions have approached making him just a cog in the machine).

yeah, Lenny is basically in my brain saying it all nicer and better.  Totally agree with his takes.  Both the cons and what it would take for Bryce to be successful......which is a Bryce offense. 

and I still think the 2 most important things you could do for Bryce Young are a good slot WR and a good rec RB.  Because I do feel you should spread the field out with Young in the gun.  Give him lots of options.  And a good slot WR and good rec RB would be vital parts in that small ball decision making game.  And we enter year 2.....without good options at those 2 key spots (I get Brooks is an investment into maybe having that but that doesn't help Bryce today.  And I don't care about ATs hands and knowledge.  He is just too slow for a QB that needs to play quick.  We got to get him out of dominant reps.