Practice for Wednesday, August 21st

[Icege]

3 hours ago, Navy_football said:

I don't think people see the hypocrisy in those takes. That's like saying, I want him to lead the team to success and be the best QB in the NFL, but until he does I'm gonna let everybody that will listen know that he can't do it. Making definitive statements like - he's too short, too little, too slow, too weak, not smart enough to even play in the NFL. He doesn't have any tools, zero, nothing to be successful in the NFL. But if he ever figures it out, he's my guy! 

Make it make sense.

Reality is if he shows any improvement, they'll give the credit somewhere else. When it'll really just be he finally gets NFL average in areas like coaching, scheme, playcalling, pass protection, and receiver play. But he's supposed to overcome below average in all those areas as a rookie? And if you just acknowledge that lack of supporting cast prevents us from making a final decision on him yet, then you're a stan or a Bryce defender. No, I just have objective common sense, sir. 

That's the part that's crazy to me. People are making clearly definitive statements and then dogging out other posters for not having the same perspective only to turn around and cry victim when they're told to keep pounding sand.

Being critical is more than okay. I was incredibly hard on Chuba his first season because of all of the drops that he had and gave immediate praise during his second season when he showed improvement. At no time did I make the declaration that he'd never be able to play RB in the NFL because that just isn't something that can be known from that rookie season. I was even more critical of YGM up until last season when his effort and motor paid off some because he was on the field more often to use it to his advantage (Yetur made his impact by wearing down opposing OL and still having his foot on the gas late in the game). I didn't think that he needed to be resigned this offseason but didn't spend every day of the offseason jumping into threads and rolling my eyes at folks that thought he should stay. Clearly, the issue isn't being critical of a player. It's the derailing of threads and condescending attitude of a select few posters that have been an issue to the point of where a compliment sandwich thread was created to make it less insufferable.

I miss when fans had this attitude tbh:

 

Edited August 22 by Icege

[PNW_PantherMan]

7 minutes ago, Icege said:

That's the part that's crazy to me. People are making clearly definitive statements and then dogging out other posters for not having the same perspective only to turn around and cry victim when they're told to keep pounding sand.

Being critical is more than okay. I was incredibly hard on Chuba his first season because of all of the drops that he had and gave immediate praise during his second season when he showed improvement. At no time did I make the declaration that he'd never be able to play RB in the NFL because that just isn't something that can be known from that rookie season. I was even more critical of YGM up until last season when his effort and motor paid off some because he was on the field more often to use it to his advantage (Yetur made his impact by wearing down opposing OL and still having his foot on the gas late in the game). I didn't think that he needed to be resigned this offseason but didn't spend every day of the offseason jumping into threads and rolling my eyes at folks that thought he should stay. Clearly, the issue isn't being critical of a player. It's the derailing of threads and condescending attitude of a select few posters that have been an issue to the point of where a compliment sandwich thread was created to make it less insufferable.

I miss when fans had this attitude tbh:

 

Fans do have that attitude though.  There's people on the forum right now saying the same stuff.  Zod wouldn't have had to say support Armanti and get over it if there weren't people questioning it.

Nothing new under the sun.

[Ricky Spanish]

10 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I respect your principles and determination.  I would have done that 10 or 20 years ago.  But now it's just not worth the effort to me.  I'd rather just pay lol.  It's like Spotify.  You made it easier and better than pirating music.  I'll pay for that.

Totally get and understand it. If you have the means to do it the easy way, do it.

But also, you know, fug the man, and all.

[TD alt]

4 hours ago, strato said:

I hear you on the winning. I understand that there are ways to scheme this and we probably both understand that if there is no field stretching going on, it will be very difficult to make anything work.

I also see ‘not the worst’, breaking new ground etc. Those aren’t positives to me. 

Still, it is an easy question to answer, isn’t it? =The conclusion may be loaded, or not. Seems simple.  Is this like those hearings where someone asks a direct question but cannot ever get a simple answer? It is a pretty direct question.

My answer is: I don’t see a single physical trait that is above average by NFL standards.  

Which IMO when speculating about NFL success, you want to have something above average to hang your hat on.

I guess it is still the processor, but he has to operate around historically advanced physical specimens. To not acknowledge the .. physics(?) of it seems to be at least a little intentionally unobservant. 

That’s all. 

 

I get that, but a lot of this stuff is a matter of definition and opinion. Like "average." I mean, being able to legitimately throw 55 yards in the air, is that "average?" Being able to escape pressure consistently and gain 5-15 yards, is that "average?" 

I mean, did Bryce's failings last season really have to do with a lack of "above average" physical tools, or was it related to something else? Could it simply have been bad mechanics or bad coaching or a combination? I mean, I really didn't see anything wholly physically-related that suggested to me that he couldn't do the job but for possibly his height. For me, that's a big issue, but I can't even say with surety that it was a legit issue, and we have seen other short guys have some degree of success in the NFL.

[strato]

16 minutes ago, TD alt said:

I get that, but a lot of this stuff is a matter of definition and opinion. Like "average." I mean, being able to legitimately throw 55 yards in the air, is that "average?" Being able to escape pressure consistently and gain 5-15 yards, is that "average?" 

I mean, did Bryce's failings last season really have to do with a lack of "above average" physical tools, or was it related to something else? Could it simply have been bad mechanics or bad coaching or a combination? I mean, I really didn't see anything wholly physically-related that suggested to me that he couldn't do the job but for possibly his height. For me, that's a big issue, but I can't even say with surety that it was a legit issue, and we have seen other short guys have some degree of success in the NFL.

Okay. I thought he got run down by DL. So I did not see any enticing speed. 

I saw him get pulled down by what looked like two fingers on a DLs hand. So, I don’t know what tool this is but he won’t be throwing a lot of balls with guys having a hand on him.

And the ball security issues from not being very strong are there.

I have said a ton that his velocity is suspect. That is most where the ability to chunk it a long way enters in here for me. It is not the 70 yard throw only, because that is a nice option to have as well, but it is the time defenders have to close and this is split second poo at that level. Is that not a valid concern? 

Then we talk oh he can’t work from the pocket... I fuging hate that concession, sorry. Hate to see it made. Hope that is wrong. (it ties in with the lack of above average foot speed, just more chances to be run down. I know plays will be made too, I just don’t like it much. And all those throwaways which I am not saying it is dumb to throw it away, on principle, just so many because he bailed at pressure maybe it will be better)

Whatever with all of it, I have typed a lot of words trying to figure out how to work with his abilities rather than just flat out say he can’t but it’s just not ideal even if it improves. 

 

Edited August 22 by strato

[frankw]

2 hours ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Fans do have that attitude though.  There's people on the forum right now saying the same stuff.  Zod wouldn't have had to say support Armanti and get over it if there weren't people questioning it.

Nothing new under the sun.

Comparing being critical of a 4th round running back with being critical of a first overall pick we traded a literal haul for....

lol

[TD alt]

28 minutes ago, strato said:

Okay. I thought he got run down by DL. So I did not see any enticing speed. 

I saw him get pulled down by what looked like two fingers on a DLs hand. So, I don’t know what tool this is but he won’t be throwing a lot of balls with guys having a hand on him.

And the ball security issues from not being very strong are there.

I have said a ton that his velocity is suspect. That is most where the ability to chunk it a long way enters in here for me. It is not the 70 yard throw only, because that is a nice option to have as well, but it is the time defenders have to close and this is split second poo at that level. Is that not a valid concern? 

Then we talk oh he can’t work from the pocket... I fuging hate that concession, sorry. Hate to see it made. Hope that is wrong. (it ties in with the lack of above average foot speed, just more chances to be run down. I know plays will be made too, I just don’t like it much. And all those throwaways which I am not saying it is dumb to throw it away, on principle, just so many because he bailed at pressure maybe it will be better)

Whatever with all of it, I have typed a lot of words trying to figure out how to work with his abilities rather than just flat out say he can’t but it’s just not ideal even if it improves. 

 

I hear what you're saying, I do. I have my skepticism, as I've stated many times now, but a lot of QBs have been run down by a DL, or pulled down by a DL, fingers or not.  We've also seen Bryce get away and scramble effectively. Each play across the NFL has a life of its own. 

Until I see more of Bryce in an average offense behind an average line, personally I am not going to draw any definitive conclusions. Last year was such a clusterfûck for so many reasons, I think that I can give him a few more games before totally giving up on him.

[strato]

1 minute ago, TD alt said:

I hear what you're saying, I do. I have my skepticism, as I've stated many times now, but a lot of QBs have been run down by a DL, or pulled down by a DL, fingers or not.  We've also seen Bryce get away and scramble effectively. Each play across the NFL has a life of its own. 

Until I see more of Bryce in an average offense behind an average line, personally I am not going to draw any definitive conclusions. Last year was such a clusterfûck for so many reasons, I think that I can give him a few more games before totally giving up on him.

Thank you man for the conversation. I am only definitive on he is working at a big disadvantage. People have made that work, before. So I am not saying Never either just dammit mostly lol. 

[TD alt]

1 hour ago, frankw said:

Comparing being critical of a 4th round running back with being critical of a first overall pick we traded a literal haul for....

lol

Well, that's not Bryce's fault. Players, regardless of position or draft status, are still just players. As such,  it's not necessarily fair or even analytical to judge them by draft capital spent to acquire them. The GM (and perhaps elements of the FO) deserves that criticism. To be clear, players are going to get criticized, but personally I stick to things that they can control.

Edited August 22 by TD alt

[frankw]

4 minutes ago, TD alt said:

Well, that's not Bryce's fault. Players, regardless of position or draft status, are still just players. As such,  it's not necessarily fair or even analytical to judge them by draft capital spent to acquire them. The GM (and perhaps elements of the FO) deserves that criticism. To be clear, players are going to get criticized, but personally I stick to things that they can control.

Of course not all of this is his fault. We can debate the fairness of criticism relating to athletes. And to be clear I am very pro player as far as how the league is setup and the share of profits. I legitimately loathe NFL owners. Cannot make that more clear.

But it's always been this way for first overall picks. Cam Newton was dragged through the mud up and down for ten years. And he was a ROTY out of the gate. People still dogged on him and demanded more. Bryce will be fine.

[PNW_PantherMan]

19 minutes ago, frankw said:

Of course not all of this is his fault. We can debate the fairness of criticism relating to athletes. And to be clear I am very pro player as far as how the league is setup and the share of profits. I legitimately loathe NFL owners. Cannot make that more clear.

But it's always been this way for first overall picks. Cam Newton was dragged through the mud up and down for ten years. And he was a ROTY out of the gate. People still dogged on him and demanded more. Bryce will be fine.

Because at the end of the day, nobody's gotta step up for Superman.  You can, but its not necessary.  His play spoke for itself.