CMC/Moore/Burns

[PNW_PantherMan]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Moore was fine. The 'he isn't a #1' people were fools. His pay to play was great. That trade was epically stupid from every angle.

I'm taking the bait.  I argued Moore was not a top end elite #1 receiver, but he was very good.  (We're talking Justin Jefferson, Tyreek Hill, peak Smitty etc.  This is a very high bar for me.)  I still don't think I'm wrong about that, but his contract was a steal.  Trading him was horrendously stupid.  He also elevated his game further after the trade to Chicago.  I did not expect that.  Chicago is historically where WRs go to die.

He definitely made sure to make us look as dumb as possible.

[Newtcase]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Moore was fine. The 'he isn't a #1' people were fools. His pay to play was great. That trade was epically stupid from every angle.

Burns was always more hype then anything else. Solid but that's the type of guy you trade before year 4 and try again. Replaceable...if the people running the team didn't waste the draft capital and cap space. 

CMC was a tough situation. Good player but the owner already fugged up and kept Rhule for year 3 which should never have happened. Selling CMC so the next crew could use that draft capital to try and fix the roster issues that showed up under Rhule isn't a bad idea. The bad idea was keeping Fritterers and letting him waste that draft capital and cap space. 

Moore was terrible, Burns was fine but they should have sold much sooner and CMC was damage control in the fallout of an owner that doesn't understand how to manage a game he doesn't know much about. 

Once again your points are spot on, very well written.  I'd like to expand your post if I may.  Under Tepper the concert of moves has been such that there has always been more than one possibility for the biggest failure.

2019 - Rivera caught the heat and lost his job.  A shadow form of Cam and/or Hurney could have been more to blame.  Tepper probably just wanted to get his guy anyway.

2020 - Hurn dog eats it this year even though Rhule and the beginning of QB purgatory could have more to blame.  Tepper probably wanted his own GM as well though.  Although this was a raw deal for Fitts as he inherits Rhule.

2021/2022 - Rhule holds the bag for this era.  Next up is Fitts.  Most argued both should have been fired here.  A carousel of washed QBs ending with a bonanza shitshow fire sale that wasn't actually a fire sale tainted the future as well.  Maybe if we had committed and shipped Burns for two firsts our whole story might be different right now.

2023 - After being allowed to pick both his coach and QB Fitts shitz the bed in the most magnificent way finally creating the first "clean the house" situation.  Fitts and Reich both bite the dust along with many staff.  But maybe, just maybe, the problem was Bryce.

2024 - Our "full reset" is actually more like a soft reset since Morgan's qualifications are questionable at best and a complete Fitts understudy at worst.  We still have Bryce and that still brings plenty of questions.  We added a complete unknown quantity at coach as well.  So if, or should I say...when the Panthers stink it up again in 2024 where is the blame going to land?  Bryce, Morgan, Canales?  Take your pick!  The beauty of Tepper's management style is you can never truly isolate the problem.

EDIT: Any combination of the above can be true at the same time.

Edited August 14 by Newtcase

[Wundrbread33]

2 hours ago, KSpan said:

Not sure I feel as strongly about Woods as you seem to but 'one of the best safeties in team history' is an extremely low bar. There is Minter, Deon Grant... and no one else outside of a couple of flashes in the pan.  

Yeah that was my thinking when I said that. Minter was the man. Deon was solid but I believe he came more into his own after leaving. 
 

Woods is smart, consistent, plays very instinctual, and covers a lot of weakness at corner since Horn can’t stay on the field. 
 

I just can’t help but notice him in good ways, and rarely do I notice him in bad ways. 
 

Like the worst thing about him is all the “defenseless receiver” penalties…and I’ll be damned if those aren’t subjective. And it’s tough to get mad at a safety for clocking a dude over the middle. 
 

It’s one of the most satisfying aspects of football. 

[Newtcase]

13 minutes ago, Newtcase said:

2021/2022 - Rhule holds the bag for this era.  Next up is Fitts.  Most argued both should have been fired here.  A carousel of washed QBs ending with a bonanza shitshow fire sale that wasn't actually a fire sale tainted the future as well.  Maybe if we had committed and shipped Burns for two firsts our whole story might be different right now.

**In this space team management actually believed removing CMC and DJ Moore, while keeping Burns was the right move** MY GOD

Quote

2023 - After being allowed to pick both his coach and QB Fitts shitz the bed in the most magnificent way finally creating the first "clean the house" situation.  Fitts and Reich both bite the dust along with many staff.  But maybe, just maybe, the problem was Bryce.

 

[Waldo]

1 hour ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I'm taking the bait.  I argued Moore was not a top end elite #1 receiver, but he was very good.  (We're talking Justin Jefferson, Tyreek Hill, peak Smitty etc.  This is a very high bar for me.)  I still don't think I'm wrong about that, but his contract was a steal.  Trading him was horrendously stupid.  He also elevated his game further after the trade to Chicago.  I did not expect that.  Chicago is historically where WRs go to die.

He definitely made sure to make us look as dumb as possible.

Then keep drafting WRs and find one that is better. You trade a guy like D Johnson and not Moore. All Moore did was produce under crappy schemes and QB play. Don't trade him, they still haven't replaced him. 

I don't really think you're stupid for not thinking he was not a true #1 but still hated the trade. The stupidity I was talking about was thinking that the first part justified the second part. He went to Chicago and earned a new contract which isn't really surprising to me because Chicago was a step up from here last year. It hurts but it's true. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

Just now, Waldo said:

Then keep drafting WRs and find one that is better. You trade a guy like D Johnson and not Moore. All Moore did was produce under crappy schemes and QB play. Don't trade him, they still haven't replaced him. 

I don't really think you're stupid for not thinking he was not a true #1 but still hated the trade. The stupidity I was talking about was thinking that the first part justified the second part. He went to Chicago and earned a new contract which isn't really surprising to me because Chicago was a step up from here last year. It hurts but it's true. 

I would say he definitely proved me wrong though.  His level of play in Chicago was higher than any year he's had here.  And he was quite good every year for us.

It really was the offense he was in that was limiting him.

[Waldo]

1 hour ago, Newtcase said:

Once again your points are spot on, very well written.  I'd like to expand your post if I may.  Under Tepper the concert of moves has been such that there has always been more than one possibility for the biggest failure.

2019 - Rivera caught the heat and lost his job.  A shadow form of Cam and/or Hurney could have been more to blame.  Tepper probably just wanted to get his guy anyway.

2020 - Hurn dog eats it this year even though Rhule and the beginning of QB purgatory could have more to blame.  Tepper probably wanted his own GM as well though.  Although this was a raw deal for Fitts as he inherits Rhule.

2021/2022 - Rhule holds the bag for this era.  Next up is Fitts.  Most argued both should have been fired here.  A carousel of washed QBs ending with a bonanza shitshow fire sale that wasn't actually a fire sale tainted the future as well.  Maybe if we had committed and shipped Burns for two firsts our whole story might be different right now.

2023 - After being allowed to pick both his coach and QB Fitts shitz the bed in the most magnificent way finally creating the first "clean the house" situation.  Fitts and Reich both bite the dust along with many staff.  But maybe, just maybe, the problem was Bryce.

2024 - Our "full reset" is actually more like a soft reset since Morgan's qualifications are questionable at best and a complete Fitts understudy at worst.  We still have Bryce and that still brings plenty of questions.  We added a complete unknown quantity at coach as well.  So if, or should I say...when the Panthers stink it up again in 2024 where is the blame going to land?  Bryce, Morgan, Canales?  Take your pick!  The beauty of Tepper's management style is you can never truly isolate the problem.

EDIT: Any combination of the above can be true at the same time.

It's obvious that Tepper operates off of the blame game. Maybe that works in a hedge fund IDK. He still hasn't shown he is going to stop anytime soon.

2024 isn't a reset it's just more of the same BS. Morgan and Caldwell should have also been fired. More like a fake reset. It's a hack job but we have to wait for the wheels to fall off to confirm. 

I am so over fair shots being given to people who did a clear bad job but because the blame goes first somewhere else they get a pass that they didn't earn but that is just IMO. 

[Waldo]

6 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I would say he definitely proved me wrong though.  His level of play in Chicago was higher than any year he's had here.  And he was quite good every year for us.

It really was the offense he was in that was limiting him.

That and trading a guy and then talking the poo that this team did should create a lot of motivation. After the ice up son game we all shouldn't be surprise. If we played the Giants this year I wouldn't be surprised if half of Burns sacks came in that game. 

[CamWhoaaCam]

4 hours ago, KSpan said:

No one 'passed on Lamar'. Baltimore was not letting him go, full stop, and they were just letting him test the market and negotiate. Any team that invested time reaching a deal was going to get matched by Baltimore. He was never actually available. 

Regarding Dak, he does not elevate the team around him. He is a slightly better Kirk Cousins. If you think that is worth hella money and hanging your hat on, go for it. Meanwhile, Dallas will continue to go nowhere meaningful with Dak at the helm.

Bro some of y'all are just stuck in your ways.

 

You telling me a QB who gets his team to the playoffs is not good?

 

Where are these elite QBs who all win SB's?

 

Burrow no SB

Allen no SB

Lamar no SB

Herbert no SB 

Are you not going to pay those QB's either?

 

 

My goodness people there aren't 10 better QBs than Dak. You want a decent QB you have to pay. 

 

Did you not learn from Baker/Bridgewater/Darnold. Stop gaps aren't the answer. Go get a playoff caliber QB.

[csx]

I couldn't give less of a poo about Burns and CMC was milking injuries.

[KSpan]

3 hours ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Bro some of y'all are just stuck in your ways.

 

You telling me a QB who gets his team to the playoffs is not good?

 

Where are these elite QBs who all win SB's?

 

Burrow no SB

Allen no SB

Lamar no SB

Herbert no SB 

Are you not going to pay those QB's either?

 

 

My goodness people there aren't 10 better QBs than Dak. You want a decent QB you have to pay. 

 

Did you not learn from Baker/Bridgewater/Darnold. Stop gaps aren't the answer. Go get a playoff caliber QB.

Nowhere did I say he wasn't good and nowhere did I say that Carolina should keep going for retreads, though ironically that's exactly what Dak would be in this scenario... if he wasn't, why wouldn't Dallas keep him? I said he's not good enough to bother with at that cost for a team in Carolina's position - that money needs to go to a game-changer, and Dak is not that kind of player. If Dallas isn't getting it done with him these past 8 years, there is absolutely zero reason for a team to expect him to be their missing piece.

[CamWhoaaCam]

26 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Nowhere did I say he wasn't good and nowhere did I say that Carolina should keep going for retreads, though ironically that's exactly what Dak would be in this scenario... if he wasn't, why wouldn't Dallas keep him? I said he's not good enough to bother with at that cost for a team in Carolina's position - that money needs to go to a game-changer, and Dak is not that kind of player. If Dallas isn't getting it done with him these past 8 years, there is absolutely zero reason for a team to expect him to be their missing piece.

The Cowboys love attention. Both Dak and Lamb will get paid by the Cowboys.

 

I'm just playing hypothetical if he becomes a FA you damn right I would try to sign him. Despite what you think of him he's a top 10 QB. That should mean something. You keep talking about the talent around him and im like besides Lamb what talent are you talking about?

 

Dak would be the 2nd best QB in Panthers history the moment we sign him.

[RJK]

Judon to ATL for a third. Bryce gonna be running for his life 

[CamWhoaaCam]

10 minutes ago, RJK said:

Judon to ATL for a third. Bryce gonna be running for his life 

Atlanta would be so much dangerous if they used that Cousins money on other pieces.

 

That roster could have been loaded with a young rookie QB in Penix. I still think Cousins is good enough to win this division, but it wouldn't shock me if Penix ends up the starter before the end of the season.