A Joe Person production: Panthers 53-man roster projection August 12th new edition primetime let's go

[PNW_PantherMan]

1 minute ago, MasterAwesome said:

Fair enough.  I had pretty much this exact same discussion a few days ago about taking a chance at a late-round QB and my argument boils down to there being essentially zero examples of late-round (5th-7th) franchise QBs outside of obviously Tom Brady.  You're having to go back to like the late 90s/early 00s for fringe franchise guys like Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck, and Ryan Fitzpatrick if I remember correctly (I did the research last week lol).  I do understand the argument about shooting your shot though, even if history doesn't bode well for those QBs panning out to anything more than back-ups.  We'll maybe see if Sam Howell amounts to anything and some would argue that Brock Purdy is a franchise QB (or trending towards it) - those guys maybe have the closest chance to buck that trend IMO.  I'll have to see Milton and Rattler in real action before I'd be willing to add them to that list.

Most guys are a long shot there regardless of position.  Our own Jake Delhomme was UDFA.  You just never know.  They don't all have to be Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys.  Cam was probably the closest we'll ever sniff to something like that.  But at this point I would settle for a playoff QB.

[strato]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

This narrative about not wanting to "challenge Bryce" and cause problems might have more credibility if we didn't have a borderline top-10 QB2 on the roster.  You guys keep talking about the FO not wanting to invest in a QB3 in order to coddle Bryce but that ain't how the hierarchy works lol QB3s don't threaten QB1s.  Dalton is plenty enough threat to Bryce; unless you're brand new to the Huddle then you should know that there were absolutely people rooting for him to enter the game over Bryce last season...and Bryce's leash is even shorter this year.

Dalton borderline top 10? Might be stretching things a little. I don’t think he was in consideration to be anything other than a bridge QB before he joined the Panthers. Is that wrong? 

Sorry to be disagreeable, but unless something has changed - one the first things out of his mouth was 'I am here to back up Bryce’ or other words, but expressing the same idea. Clearly he was brought in to be that and took the gig under those parameters. That was last year, is it different now?

If I bet, I would bet on Canales having a condition or two placed on his employment regarding Bryce. Ride with 9, no QB controversy. Job is to grow him into a legit starter. I don’t know anything obviously, but that’s my guess.

 

I wanted competition because I don’t believe it would have been hard to beat Bryce out*, and I wanted better. That was the low hanging stuff. I have refined that into he needs at least some kind of threat to his job, pushing him. Or an illusion of it, just to make him better.  

edit* now that I think about it a bit more my big deal was I wanted him to at least show he could beat someone out and not be just handed the job. 

Edited August 13 by strato

[Waldo]

33 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I agree.  Andy is the ideal backup, and he's cemented at QB2.  I'm making the assumption that if they drafted a guy in the 5th or later, they would carry him as QB3.  My point is just that they've created a situation deliberately where Bryce is the only guy.  It's his show for better or worse.  It's really questionable when you see teams investing so much in QBs in the draft, yet still taking a shot on another one in the later rounds.  That's how important it is to hit on a QB.  It doesn't matter if you traded the farm for the pick, or you took a guy in the 6th or 7th round.  If it hits, it hits.  And until it does, there's no sense in passing on taking one.

We haven't solved the QB position, but it seems like we're not open to even taking a flier on one until they've moved on from Bryce.  That's questionable management to me.  It's either negligence or they've deliberately created this situation.  And just based off the smell of everything so far, it seems like its deliberate to me.  Yeah that is speculation, but that's what I enjoy doing lol.

The 49ers spent a load on Lance and then took Purdy the next year. That's how you walk away from an expensive failure in the NFL. They didn't give up and waste years on Lance, they went out the next year and took a guy in the 7th while Lance was having noticeable issues. They were not afraid to take a flyer or play the better guy regardless of draft capital wasted. That's a team that wants to win. 

[strato]

And I gotta say, someone linked to Jets week last year and Joe Person’s take? That was interesting.

[Newtcase]

5 minutes ago, Waldo said:

The 49ers spent a load on Lance and then took Purdy the next year. That's how you walk away from an expensive failure in the NFL. They didn't give up and waste years on Lance, they went out the next year and took a guy in the 7th while Lance was having noticeable issues. They were not afraid to take a flyer or play the better guy regardless of draft capital wasted. That's a team that wants to win. 

We'd have to accidentally get trapped into a situation like this.  Canales has already told us there is no QB competition in Carolina.  Imagine not having to compete for the job of "NFL QB", it's really insane if you think about it.

Edited August 13 by Newtcase

[Wundrbread33]

2 minutes ago, Newtcase said:

We'd have to accidentally get trapped into a situation like this.  Canales has already told us there is no QB competition in Carolina.  Imagine not having to compete for the job of "NFL QB", it's really insane if you think about it.

I’d have to assume he has a guarantee he’s coach next year no matter what. Tep wants every chance to save face on Bryce. 
 

I find it hard to believe any coach can look at what Bryce did last year and not bring in competition otherwise. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

8 minutes ago, Newtcase said:

We'd have to accidentally get trapped into a situation like this.  Canales has already told us there is no QB competition in Carolina.  Imagine not having to compete for the job of "NFL QB", it's really insane if you think about it.

Well we accidentally became a semi competent football team when Tepper tried to tank with Wilks, so you never know!

[Waldo]

11 minutes ago, Newtcase said:

We'd have to accidentally get trapped into a situation like this.  Canales has already told us there is no QB competition in Carolina.  Imagine not having to compete for the job of "NFL QB", it's really insane if you think about it.

He actively avoided it by looking for #3s that would have trouble making a PS. The QB whisperer. Who just reinvented the 3 game preseason approach. 

People want to give this guy a high pick at QB next year and all I keep thinking is we will have another 2nd year QB with another rookie HC in 2 years. 

[MasterAwesome]

3 minutes ago, strato said:

Dalton borderline top 10? Might be stretching things a little. I don’t think he was in consideration to be anything other than a bridge QB before he joined the Panthers. Is that wrong? 

Sorry to be disagreeable, but unless something has changed - one the first things out of his mouth was 'I am here to back up Bryce’ or other words, but expressing the same idea. Clearly he was brought in to be that and took the gig under those parameters. That was last year, is it different now?

If I bet, I would bet on Canales having a condition or two placed on his employment regarding Bryce. Ride with 9, no QB controversy. Job is to grow him into a legit starter. I don’t know anything obviously, but that’s my guess.

 

I wanted competition because I don’t believe it would have been hard to beat Bryce out, and I wanted better. That was the low hanging stuff. I have refined that into he needs at least some kind of threat to his job, pushing him. Or an illusion of it, just to make him better.  

 

I just googled "Top 10 back up QBs" and the first article has him at #7, and the next two have him at #1, albeit those two were from last year.  I don't think he did anything to hurt his standing from last year to this year, but regardless, that's why I'm giving plenty of cushion to say he's simply "borderline top 10".  IMO he's pretty comfortably in the top 10 and I'd be curious if you can present me with a list of 10-12 back-up QBs you think are better than him.  And when I say "Top 10", I don't mean back-up QBs who I would want to have...like I'd obviously rather have a rookie Drake Maye or Michael Penix Jr. over a 36-year-old Andy Dalton, but I'm using the criteria of competency to step in right now.  Maybe we're looking at it differently though.

Of course things are different from last year to this year.  Last year he was a rookie in a bad enough situation to at least somewhat plausibly excuse his poor performance; this year I think his leash is a lot shorter and that he has to show that he's the guy or he's out.  And to be clear, I don't even think Dalton is a huge threat to Bryce Young this year because I think the team wants to give him this season to once-and-for-all either prove he's our guy or hopefully get us the 1st overall pick next year.  I thought most of the board agreed that he should get this season.  I'm just saying I think a late-round raw developmental QB sure as hell ain't gonna be the one to challenge Bryce considering I already believe Dalton won't.  I've never heard this much chatter devoted to the QB3 position; certainly not for a team in as bad of shape as ours.  Yes I understand the appeal of having a drafted developmental QB on the roster but I think the appeal stems from some idealized *absolutely best-case-scenario* of like one dimension in the multiverse where that QB becomes our franchise QB and ignoring the million other dimensions where that QB fizzles out before his career even began.  But I know we're just ultimately just gonna circle back to last week's discussion we already had so we don't have to go down this road again.

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Most guys are a long shot there regardless of position.  Our own Jake Delhomme was UDFA.  You just never know.  They don't all have to be Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys.  Cam was probably the closest we'll ever sniff to something like that.  But at this point I would settle for a playoff QB.

Well I purposely left out UDFAs because we did technically sign an UDFA QB in Plummer lol so I thought the whole argument was specifically about drafting late round QBs.

[strato]

 

8 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I just googled "Top 10 back up QBs" and the first article has him at #7, and the next two have him at #1, albeit those two were from last year.  I don't think he did anything to hurt his standing from last year to this year, but regardless, that's why I'm giving plenty of cushion to say he's simply "borderline top 10".  IMO he's pretty comfortably in the top 10 and I'd be curious if you can present me with a list of 10-12 back-up QBs you think are better than him.  And when I say "Top 10", I don't mean back-up QBs who I would want to have...like I'd obviously rather have a rookie Drake Maye or Michael Penix Jr. over a 36-year-old Andy Dalton, but I'm using the criteria of competency to step in right now.  Maybe we're looking at it differently though.

Of course things are different from last year to this year.  Last year he was a rookie in a bad enough situation to at least somewhat plausibly excuse his poor performance; this year I think his leash is a lot shorter and that he has to show that he's the guy or he's out.  And to be clear, I don't even think Dalton is a huge threat to Bryce Young this year because I think the team wants to give him this season to once-and-for-all either prove he's our guy or hopefully get us the 1st overall pick next year.  I thought most of the board agreed that he should get this season.  I'm just saying I think a late-round raw developmental QB sure as hell ain't gonna be the one to challenge Bryce considering I already believe Dalton won't.  I've never heard this much chatter devoted to the QB3 position; certainly not for a team in as bad of shape as ours.  Yes I understand the appeal of having a drafted developmental QB on the roster but I think the appeal stems from some idealized *absolutely best-case-scenario* of like one dimension in the multiverse where that QB becomes our franchise QB and ignoring the million other dimensions where that QB fizzles out before his career even began.  But I know we're just ultimately just gonna circle back to last week's discussion we already had so we don't have to go down this road again.

Number one it was my bad because I must have overlooked the backup stipulation. I wouldn’t have argued that at all. Top 10 backup? Yeah I agree. 

And I am not lobbying hard for QB 3 because I agree more or less with what you I am responding to. I don’t don’t feel like typing a ton of stuff arguing, normally because it gets to be a two way back and forth in a thread for one, and that usually ruins them. 

 

edit: but there is nothing wrong with wanting players to earn their jobs through legitimate competition. Obviously we aren’t getting that with Bryce... not even the illusion of it.

Edited August 13 by strato

[Newtcase]

20 minutes ago, Waldo said:

He actively avoided it by looking for #3s that would have trouble making a PS. The QB whisperer. Who just reinvented the 3 game preseason approach. 

People want to give this guy a high pick at QB next year and all I keep thinking is we will have another 2nd year QB with another rookie HC in 2 years. 

I think you are spot on.  I don't even know where this QB whisperer garbage came from.  Baker statistically was on par with his early Cleveland production last year and only threw for 147 yards in 9-0 win against us with the division and playoffs on the line.  Not making a statement on Canales other than I don't think his resume is head coach quality.  Doesn't mean he won't be, to me it just means it's yet another gamble.

[kungfoodude]

3 hours ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

They aren't going to bring in anyone that's going to challenge Bryce, because it would cause problems.  Nobody is going to root for the backup to enter the game when its Jack Plummer.  Neither the fans or players.

Spencer Rattler has very little change of challenging Young to start. This isn't a QB 3 competition(although it probably should be).

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Most guys are a long shot there regardless of position.  Our own Jake Delhomme was UDFA.  You just never know.  They don't all have to be Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys.  Cam was probably the closest we'll ever sniff to something like that.  But at this point I would settle for a playoff QB.

The problem with setting your strategy on statistical outliers is that you are gambling on a hit of a very low percentage. That's like investing in scratch off lottery tickets.

Actually, now that I think about it, that's kind of been our front office strategy for several years now.