Watching Giants Off-Season Hard Knocks and Something is Crystallizing...

[Basbear]

15 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

I loved Dan as a player since college snd have been pulling for him ever since.  I'm still holding out hope he can turn things around here, but man...  some stuff is just hard to stomach.  Getting Diontae was an absolute steal.  But seeing how hard the Giants keyed in on Burns so early, knowing Dan already had a relationship with Schoen, seeing their conversation started with Dan asking for two ones, then seeing the negotiations distill down to us getting haggled out of asking for an additional 7th to go with the 2nd we already settled for...  if that's how your friends do you, then I'm kind of worried what negotiations with someone else would look like.  

I haven't been frequenting the boards as much, as I'm going through massive change in my life, and considering our whole organization has continuously and progressively deteriorated under Tepper since he's been here, I haven't been as nearly locked in as a fan as I used to be...  so maybe I missed the reaction to this already, but man, what a huge punch to the gut.  I didn't rag on passing up on the Rams two 1sts offer when many did last year because I figured we were keeping Burns, so it made sense from that perspective...  but the fact that was offered, we passed on it, and then even with considering Fitt was fired and Morgan took over, we end up still asking for two 1sts as the starting point and end up with a 2nd and a 5th while also giving up a pick of our own for the best pass rusher from his class...  yikes.  I would rather have just kept him.  And in addition to that, early reviews on this draft class so far isn't great from what I've read.  

 

I've said it elsewhere, but man, I really feel like the only way we turn things around under Tepper is to back into success by accident.

We need to go over the details more than we do. Rams were looking playoff good and offered a 2nd this year and two future 1s. It depends on your value of future picks. The most of the league seems to roughly agree a "now" 4th is worth a next year 3rd. The same for most other rounds ie "now" 6th for a future 5th, the issue is there is no "0" round for the 1st rounders. That 2nd was looking in the 50s as well. 

Rams had a minor heart attack soon after that in Mcvay and 99 were talking retirement. It's also important to the story, cause that would have increased the value.

BB was under cheap control for 2 years or 1.5, this was gone with the giants. Plus they could have used the tag again as well. 

At the time if added BB to that Rams team, it was looking like 55 overall pick that year, 27th overall next year, and ?? in two years. 

It's just one of deals in which "timing" was the key. And once again panthers failed. BB had much more value when the rams offered that package. Blame BB as well, cause he coasted this past year and played scared. If he dropped 20 sacks, unlike his normal 8.....Dan could have gotten much more. Still the cheap control was over and BB was asking for around 30million per for his weak-ass 8 sacks and minimal run support. 

Look Ive not been the happiest with Dan Morgan, but one thing he's made of point of is getting rid of players that he thought were not tough enough. Getting rid of BB is part of that change as well. 

[WhoKnows]

22 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

Yeah, but at the time there was a feeling like he was an ascending player. Fitt and Rhule also kept saying we were 'one piece away'... 

And to be fair.. at the time we had a decent team.. If Darnold would have played to his 'potential' then it would have been a good move and we would have been instantly competitive. 

But he didn't and we threw everything into that gamble.

The one piece away was the problem. Fitterer said he thought the 2023 team (after trading CMC and Moore) was better than 2022 except at a couple spots. He was a legit moron at his job.

He just kept flopping around and had no clue on talent evaluation. He thought his shitty WR picks were good enough to get rid of CMC and Moore just flubbed Burns. He waited long enough for the Bosa deal so that his contract demands were more than we’d pay and long enough for the Sweat and Young trades to devalue Burns’ worth.

I really hope Morgan’s picks do well and then we can build on that but I’m worried we are picking the same way and we won’t get much from this draft class.

[WhoKnows]

3 minutes ago, Basbear said:

We need to go over the details more than we do. Rams were looking playoff good and offered a 2nd this year and two future 1s. It depends on your value of future picks. The most of the league seems to roughly agree a "now" 4th is worth a next year 3rd. The same for most other rounds ie "now" 6th for a future 5th, the issue is there is no "0" round for the 1st rounders. That 2nd was looking in the 50s as well. 

Rams had a minor heart attack soon after that in Mcvay and 99 were talking retirement. It's also important to the story, cause that would have increased the value.

BB was under cheap control for 2 years or 1.5, this was gone with the giants. Plus they could have used the tag again as well. 

At the time if added BB to that Rams team, it was looking like 55 overall pick that year, 27th overall next year, and ?? in two years. 

It's just one of deals in which "timing" was the key. And once again panthers failed. BB had much more value when the rams offered that package. Blame BB as well, cause he coasted this past year and played scared. If he dropped 20 sacks, unlike his normal 8.....Dan could have gotten much more. Still the cheap control was over and BB was asking for around 30million per for his weak-ass 8 sacks and minimal run support. 

Look Ive not been the happiest with Dan Morgan, but one thing he's made of point of is getting rid of players that he thought were not tough enough. Getting rid of BB is part of that change as well. 

You are a year ahead of yourself. The Rams were 3-4 when we turned down the deal and Stafford had been hurt all year. The Rams were doing a last hurrah because the 49ers were also 3-4 and not looking good with Jimmy. The Rams finished 5-12. After that year, those 2 first were looking even better than ours. McVay was contemplating retiring and Donald ended up playing one more year. Stafford didn’t finish the season. Heck, if the Rams did make the deal, McVay might have retired and Donald as well.

The Rams had a fantastic 2023 draft, in part because we didn’t take the deal. You might be thinking of the 2023 Rams as a playoff team. Their 2023 pick we would have gotten was pick 36.

Before the 2023 draft, the Rams 2024 1st and 2025 1st were likely rated higher than ours, since we finished 7-10 and they were 5-12 with a hurt and old Stafford and some potential big changes. I think we could have packaged the Rams pick to move from 9 to 1. It could have been a double whammy if we then picked Stroud. We wouldn’t have had pick 1 in this draft but probably could have gotten a solid WR like Odunze to pair with Moore and CMC. Damn, it really hurts to remember the details.

[Basbear]

3 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

You are a year ahead of yourself. The Rams were 3-4 when we turned down the deal and Stafford had been hurt all year. The Rams were doing a last hurrah because the 49ers were also 3-4 and not looking good with Jimmy. The Rams finished 5-12. After that year, those 2 first were looking even better than ours. McVay was contemplating retiring and Donald ended up playing one more year. Stafford didn’t finish the season. Heck, if the Rams did make the deal, McVay might have retired and Donald as well.

The Rams had a fantastic 2023 draft, in part because we didn’t take the deal. You might be thinking of the 2023 Rams as a playoff team. Their 2023 pick we would have gotten was pick 36.

Before the 2023 draft, the Rams 2024 1st and 2025 1st were likely rated higher than ours, since we finished 7-10 and they were 5-12 with a hurt and old Stafford and some potential big changes. I think we could have packaged the Rams pick to move from 9 to 1. It could have been a double whammy if we then picked Stroud. We wouldn’t have had pick 1 in this draft but probably could have gotten a solid WR like Odunze to pair with Moore and CMC. Damn, it really hurts to remember the details.

when they were 3-4(??I'm not sure of this), they were still considered a playoff team form past years. I believe Stafford was healthy during the trade deadline and nearly the week after got injured with the thought he'd miss a few weeks. Im not doing back to check the dates, but feel correct. I think you are confusing the CMC trade with some of this. Im sure I'm off some in my 'details" as well. 

Plus if you added BB to the rams, who knows what effect it would have on draft picks. You got to believe BB has a big positive difference with teams focused on 99. The picks should/would be be much worse than 36rd and better 1st than the Panthers...

[KSpan]

4 minutes ago, Basbear said:

when they were 3-4(??I'm not sure of this), they were still considered a playoff team form past years. I believe Stafford was healthy during the trade deadline and nearly the week after got injured with the thought he'd miss a few weeks. Im not doing back to check the dates, but feel correct. I think you are confusing the CMC trade with some of this. Im sure I'm off some in my 'details" as well. 

Plus if you added BB to the rams, who knows what effect it would have on draft picks. You got to believe BB has a big positive difference with teams focused on 99. The picks should/would be be much worse than 36rd and better 1st than the Panthers...

It really doesn't matter how things end up falling out after the trade. The bottom line is that someone offered 2 1sts and a 2nd for a single player with 1.5 years left on a contract, let alone a player as one dimensional and streaky as Burns. Even if they end up as mid/lower 1st round picks, that's still an absolute haul that saves a ton of cap. It was incredibly stupid from any angle.

[Basbear]

Just now, KSpan said:

It really doesn't matter how things end up falling out after the trade. The bottom line is that someone offered 2 1sts and a 2nd for a single player with 1.5 years left on a contract, let alone a player as one dimensional and streaky as Burns. Even if they end up as mid/lower 1st round picks, that's still an absolute haul that saves a ton of cap. It was incredibly stupid from any angle.

Not going to disagree it wasnt Stoopid. Just there's a clear value difference between 3rd overall and 31st overall. In doing that trade, you got to label them as near worse case for your side ie 25th and later. Just about every year team had the cut off point for true 1st rounders at 14th(+/-). Those future 1st are not the same value of this year. The value would vary greatly. I was once one of those about in favor to trade for future picks, but the value of One year exp and 2 off-seasons has made me change. I think its a slight favor to the "Now" pick.  

Like you said even if the the 1st were of the later favor, its still worth. The one guy that wanted to do the trade got fired this year, made me think of another issue. 

I've said over and over, if you turn down that offer- YOU must resign BB. Im not his biggest fan, but he was only 25 with 5 years exp. NFL pays up for elite QBs and pass rushers.....even ones with weak run D. 

You got to see the Panthers side, yes .....(after the factt) with this sorry-ass team its hard. They believe they could be a playoff roster and thought BB would re-sign in the future. If you're a GM and strongly feel you are a playoff team, you simply can not trade a young pass rusher that "could"(lols) break out of his 8 sack slump. 

Please go back and bump those Burns trade trades, you will see me getting pissed about them passing on that offer. But I sorta see panthers side, even after it blew up in their face.

[frankw]

1 hour ago, jayboogieman said:

There were a few of us claiming the team needed to make that trade quickly when the news broke because we felt Burns wasn't worth a big new contract or what the Rams were offering.

I think it boils down to the baffling inconsistency in the approach from Fitterer from the jump. And Rhule before he got here. They flipped back and forth between trying to win now and a partial rebuild. It should have been a full rebuild all along. All roads go back to Tepper. Without his constant meddling and always pushing for the wrong decision and making big splashes to get him media attention we could already be competing for the playoffs. I'm talking all the way back to the 2020 offseason. Ever since he did Cam that way it's been disaster. That's no coincidence. We're snakebit.

[KSpan]

5 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Not going to disagree it wasnt Stoopid. Just there's a clear value difference between 3rd overall and 31st overall. In doing that trade, you got to label them as near worse case for your side ie 25th and later. Just about every year team had the cut off point for true 1st rounders at 14th(+/-). Those future 1st are not the same value of this year. The value would vary greatly. I was once one of those about in favor to trade for future picks, but the value of One year exp and 2 off-seasons has made me change. I think its a slight favor to the "Now" pick.  

Like you said even if the the 1st were of the later favor, its still worth. The one guy that wanted to do the trade got fired this year, made me think of another issue. 

I've said over and over, if you turn down that offer- YOU must resign BB. Im not his biggest fan, but he was only 25 with 5 years exp. NFL pays up for elite QBs and pass rushers.....even ones with weak run D. 

You got to see the Panthers side, yes .....(after the factt) with this sorry-ass team its hard. They believe they could be a playoff roster and thought BB would re-sign in the future. If you're a GM and strongly feel you are a playoff team, you simply can not trade a young pass rusher that "could"(lols) break out of his 8 sack slump. 

Please go back and bump those Burns trade trades, you will see me getting pissed about them passing on that offer. But I sorta see panthers side, even after it blew up in their face.

I took so much heat for the assessment that Burns was one-dimensional and, while a very good pass rusher, nowhere near the standalone impact player that is paid the money he was asking. Still boggles my mind a bit that people watched him for all of those years and still wanted to ague that he was worth elite-tier money. The Sweat deal just solidified that Carolina was right in not giving in to his demands, but too bad that was after they blew two golden opportunities to maximize his trade value.

Edited August 12 by KSpan

[Basbear]

8 minutes ago, KSpan said:

I took so much heat for the assessment that Burns was one-dimensional and, while a very good pass rusher, nowhere near the standalone impact player that is paid the money he was asking. Still boggles my mind a bit that people watched him for all of those years and still wanted to ague that he was worth elite-tier money. The Sweat deal just solidified that Carolina was right in not giving in to his demands, but too bad that was after they blew two golden opportunities to maximize his trade value.

I found one of mine past BB takes, I was ALWAYS hating on his weak run defense and I also took heat

Quote

Plus his rush D is sus. It took him 4 years to learn how to eat, btw he looks slimmer than TC now.....

The good- dat age.....4 years starting in the NFL and hes only 24.....thats pre-prime for some.....Plus he has played better this year and improved some each yr.

Im just not a fan of 30per, nope, no chance. After the 5th year, you can tag him for the next 3 welllll under 30. Trade him among during for two 1sts, two 3rds, and cherry on top.....just like CMC let some other team pay him..

 

 

Edited August 12 by Basbear

[strato]

22 minutes ago, frankw said:

I think it boils down to the baffling inconsistency in the approach from Fitterer from the jump. And Rhule before he got here. They flipped back and forth between trying to win now and a partial rebuild. It should have been a full rebuild all along. All roads go back to Tepper. Without his constant meddling and always pushing for the wrong decision and making big splashes to get him media attention we could already be competing for the playoffs. I'm talking all the way back to the 2020 offseason. Ever since he did Cam that way it's been disaster. That's no coincidence. We're snakebit.

You know what? No poo. Rhule had what, 7 years on his deal? And did not gut and remake the team in his image? or whatever...

But he totally had the mandate to do it to it. Scared probably. 

 

edit: and the Burns stuff, I thought everyone knew he was soft against the run and all about the sack glory. But you can’t escape attack speaking truth when some people’s fanhood is their compass. 

Edited August 12 by strato

[Jackie Lee]

I actually am still a bit perplexed we dropped Bozeman when we want to be a run first team this year lol. I guess Canales is more of a zone than power guy supposedly but Corbett can't even get a clean snap off apparently

[strato]

I agree about Bozeman as far as why was there a need to push him out? 

Number one, I know he had a bad year, I saw it. I will note that I predicted possible struggles for him because his wife had a baby and it was gonna tax him a lot. Missed a lot of sleep. Knew that was going to really be a challenge. Then you add a guard clusterfug to his right and especially to his left. Okay, crucify him if you must, but spare the little QB. That is what fans spent a lot of time doing. 

So now, he is dead cap who the hell is the backup?

You make someone beat him out. When they do, you have your backup. So I don’t think we really have the whole story. He and his wife were like poster family, with all the team website trimmings. That was fuging weird, thinking back on it.,

That Hurst deal, big screw job. I think some kind of hardball was in order there, make him retire or whatever you gotta do to not take that $ hit. 

[Ricky Prickles]

10 hours ago, thennek said:

If Tepper continues to meddle the Panthers will continue to make stupid decisions and continue to be a losing franchise. There have been so many bad decisions made the past 6 years it is really hard to remember all of them.  I really hope Morgan stands up to Tepper.  How they are handling Young right now makes me wonder if Tepper is really letting his football people make decisions.  When Frank was here for a very brief period, he said Tepper was very involved.  

Doesn't seem as if he is meddling now at least from what it appears but I could be wrong of course. Maybe thats a good sign things can change eventually around here

[Ricky Prickles]

1 hour ago, KSpan said:

I took so much heat for the assessment that Burns was one-dimensional and, while a very good pass rusher, nowhere near the standalone impact player that is paid the money he was asking. Still boggles my mind a bit that people watched him for all of those years and still wanted to ague that he was worth elite-tier money. The Sweat deal just solidified that Carolina was right in not giving in to his demands, but too bad that was after they blew two golden opportunities to maximize his trade value.

I never gave you any heat and agreed. Im probably biased though as I have never liked Burns much as a player or a leader to the team. Im glad he is gone but I sure do wish we had taken those two first rounders.