Tanking the season

[DaCityKats]

why not....philly been saying they were going to trade mcnabb for 3 plus years and did.

[rayzor]

the goal for the organization not winning a superbowl?

lowl you guys are toooooooo much.

[DaCityKats]

its not....not bc the talent on the team, but the guy who suppose to be the head coach.some people in this organization are content with being average now thats lol.

[rayzor]

he hasn't been given an extension. it's a do or die year for him. if you are content with the status quo (which has resulted in not winning a superbowl) then you make an effort to keep him.

if you are content with the status quo then you don't go and release/let go of most of those players that contributed to the status quo for years and decide to build on the young core.

there is very little they have done that would support the idea that they are complacent and not interested in making the team better. to make the team better you have to make room for new blood to come in. if fox can make the new crew a champion crew then good. if not then bye bye.

just because they haven't gone out and filled every "hole" and didn't fire fox (something that i wished they had done, btw) doesn't mean that the team isn't interested in winning the superbowl. i just see them as looking to give themselves a team that can make runs at it for years rather than just this year.

they have a good core to build on. a good crew for fox or whoever is the next coach to work with. it's also one that is entirely capable of making a superbowl run if things fall into place.

these guys want to win. they are going to give it everything they have. fox wants to win. richardson wants to win. they all do. while i might question their decision making (ESPECIALLY foxes), i would never question their desire to win.

[Woodie]

No, I don't think we are better than we were a year ago, but I also don't think we are any worse either (with the exception of losing Peppers). All the moves we have made are non-issues. Other than familiarity, we haven't really lost anything.

Is Fiametta a downgrade from Hoover? Yeah, when Hoover plays, but unfortunately, the number of plays in which he is on the field keeps going down as his injuries add up. So while, in theory, Hoover was a big loss, the reality is that he had become undependable, and while Fiametta is probably not ready to be THE guy at FB, other guys like Rosario and Sutton have proven that they are more than capable of filling that role solidly. So, while Fiametta is probably a downgrade in a one on one matchup with Hoover, the FB by commitee approach is probably an overall upgrade.

While Diggs was solid, he was far from spectacular. He's one of those guys that you're fine with if he's there, and fine with if he's not. However, since the SLB bar had been set only to solid, either Anderson or Connor (probably Connor) should be able to step in without missing a beat. So at worst, this should be a push, and at best an upgrade.

Lewis and Kemo. Come on, for the last few years both got reamed quite a bit because a lot of people thought they were substandard. So how is it that now so many are acting as if they were above average players. The truth is that Kemo (and Thomas last year) gave us a guy that can clog the middle, but little else. While Leonard may be unspectacular, and not as stout, he is more active and gets better push than Kemo. So what we give up in space eating, we will make up in more plays on the ball and push. No matter how you look at it, neither guy is special, and really, there's not much difference between the level each plays at. So I'd call this a push.

With Lewis, pretty much everyone has been saying for years he is nothing more than a rotational player that shouldn't be starting. So while Tyler/Irvin/Johnson may be a bit of a downgrade, it's only minimal. It's not as if we are replacing a pro bowler.

Until we get another receiver, Moose will look like a big loss, but his production had become very average, and that should not be hard to replace. But since we will certainly be picking up at least one more WR, this move gets an incomplete.

The only thing we lose from Jake is leadership, but with Moore entrenched as our starter, that leadership could have divided the team if we kept him on the roster, so losing him was an overall gain. However, we still need a vet backup, so this move is incomplete.

So, other than those guys, what other significant losses have we taken? It seems to me that pretty much every move is a virtual wash, meaning that the team is neither better nor worse than it was when the season ended. Of course, the one exception is that Peppers will be a big loss and puts the overall tally in the negative. But that was a move in which our hands were basically tied, and should have little or nothing to do with any discussion about what this team is trying to accomplish with the other moves the team made.

[panthers55]

No, I don't think we are better than we were a year ago, but I also don't think we are any worse (with the exception of losing Peppers). All the moves we have made are non-issues. Other than familiarity, we haven't really lost anything.

Is Fiametta a downgrade from Hoover? Yeah, when Hoover plays, but unfortunately, the number of plays in which he is on the field keeps going down as his injuries add up. So while, in theory, Hoover was a big loss, the reality is that he had become undependable, and while Fiametta is probably not ready to be THE guy at FB, other guys like Rosario and Sutton have proven that they are more than capable of filling that role solidly. So, while Fiametta is probably a downgrade in a one on one matchup with Hoover, the FB by commitee approach is probably an overall upgrade.

While Diggs was solid, he was far from spectacular. He's one of those guys that you're fine with if he's there, and fine with if he's not. However, since the SLB bar had been set only to solid, either Anderson or Connor (probably Connor) should be able to step in without missing a beat. So at worst, this should be a push, and at best an upgrade.

Lewis and Kemo. Come on, for the last few years both got reamed quite a bit because a lot of people thought they were substandard. So how is it that now so many are acting as if they were above average players. The truth is that Kemo (and Thomas last year) gave us a guy that can clog the middle, but little else. While Leonard may be unspectacular, and not as stout, he is more active and gets better push than Kemo. So what we give up in space eating, we will make up in more plays on the ball and push. No matter how you look at it, neither guy is special, and really, there's not much difference between the level each plays at. So I'd call this a push.

With Lewis, pretty much everyone has been saying for years he is nothing more than a rotational player that shouldn't be starting. So while Tyler/Irvin/Johnson may be a bit of a downgrade, it's only minimal. It's not as if we are replacing a pro bowler.

Until we get another receiver, Moose will look like a big loss, but his production had become very average, and that should not be hard to replace. But since we will certainly be picking up at least one more WR, this move gets an incomplete.

The only thing we lose from Jake is leadership, but with Moore entrenched as our starter, that leadership could have divided the team if we kept him on the roster, so losing him was an overall gain. However, we still need a vet backup, so this move is incomplete.

So, other than those guys, what other significant losses have we taken? It seems to me that pretty much every move is a virtual wash, meaning that the team is neither better nor worse than it was when the season ended. Of course, the one exception is that Peppers will be a big loss and puts the overall tally in the negative. But that was a move in which our hands were basically tied, and should have little or nothing to do with any discussion about what this team is trying to accomplish with the other moves the team made.

Fiametta only played in 10 games last year- less than Hoover and suffered a major concussion which has to be a bigger concern when your job is described as being a battering ram. Sutton came in out of necessity when Fiametta couldn't play. Not only can't he play as well, he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Fullback by committee may be what happens but it rarely is preferable to finding a consistent performer.

Diggs was solid and consistent. Sure we can say that Anderson and Conor are better but if they were, they would have played instead of being backups. Connor may be fine but he is still coming off an injury that often takes 2 years to fully recover and does effect your speed and lateral movement. just saying.............

As for Kemo- ever since he got hurt in 2008 and throughout 2009 our run defense was significantly worse than when Kemo was in there. Louis played 1 game and went on IR and may have issues who knows. But clearly no matter who we brought in, they were a downgrade from Kemo.

Lewis was clearly our best interior linemen and had less sacks than usual because he had to play more read and react rather than penetrate because the middle was suspect without Kemo. Irvin, Tyler and whoever else will have to work very hard to match Lewis's production.

So far Moose was the starter because no one else was able to do the job. We didn't find a replacement for Moose the first time we got rid of him so we brought him back. Hopefully we find his replacement this time but our history at doing that is suspect.

The reality is that with the exception of Moore, no other position is distinctly better off. There will be guys who step up and those who don't. But to say we are better right now is drinking something a lot stronger than Koolaid.

[DaveThePanther2008]

Defensive line is a huge question mark on this team. Its a question because we dont know what we've got really.

Louis Leonard only only played in what 2 games? he looked pretty good to me tho.

Everette Brown will certainly see the field more, but he has'nt seen it enough for us to know exactly what we have in him.

Charles Johnson has shown flashes of brilliance but hasnt cracked the starting lineup yet

Tyler Brayton is solid and serviceable but not elite

Corey Irvin who we drafted last year spent the entire season on i.r

Tank Tyler is a big mofo and young, havent seen enough of him yet either to pass judgement.

Theres others as well but we have more questions than we do answers there. We wont know what weve got, good or bad until the season starts.

They have potential but will they live up to it? nobody knows yet but at the same time we cant declare they all suck yet either.

I find it hard to believe the front office would deplete this team of players that performed well if we didn't have viable replacements. The slew of injuries to the DT corp was epic. How many DT's went down.

Lewis, Tyler, Irvin, Brayton and Johnson will take care of business.

I think the coaching staff has the belief that these players can and will perform as good as if not better than last years team. We didn't go after Brown just because he fell to the 2nd round. He was targeted to replace Peppers. I think we got a great pick. Charles Johnson and Brayton will take care of business and Brown will too. I honestly believe we will not miss Julius Peppers all that much. Sure the interceptions and the freakish athletic ability were fun to watch but they weren't the norm. JP was a prime time player. He only came out when on National TV.

Otherwise look at our starters. Moore was a post cut pickup (not really a free agent) Harris was via trade. Only our DT's and Brayton were free agents.

Our entire starting OLINE are draft picks TE and WR too. LB's CB, DE too. I see us getting younger with rookies and filling the gap with vet Free Agents. We will get good not great but good players at good prices to fill the final training camp roster.

We aren't tanking the season. Making our draft picks step up to the plate. Sure enough. I think we will surprise most next season.

Go Panthers

[CLTPanther]

pie!

[CatMan72]

I'm not concerned about the talent of the veteran players we've lost, I'm worried about a leadership void that may have been created by losing so many at once... but such is life in the NFL and we've already got guys like Beason stepping up.

I agree that I think it's absurd people have decided the Panthers are in rebuilding mode based on those releases for all the reasons the OP stated. For all we know, the young guys that are gonna get a chance this year like Tony Fiametta, Dan Connor, Louis Leonard and Tank Tyler are MAJOR upgrades over the veterans they are replacing.

[MaineManPanther]

Fiametta only played in 10 games last year- less than Hoover and suffered a major concussion which has to be a bigger concern when your job is described as being a battering ram. Sutton came in out of necessity when Fiametta couldn't play. Not only can't he play as well, he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Fullback by committee may be what happens but it rarely is preferable to finding a consistent performer.

Diggs was solid and consistent. Sure we can say that Anderson and Conor are better but if they were, they would have played instead of being backups. Connor may be fine but he is still coming off an injury that often takes 2 years to fully recover and does effect your speed and lateral movement. just saying.............

As for Kemo- ever since he got hurt in 2008 and throughout 2009 our run defense was significantly worse than when Kemo was in there. Louis played 1 game and went on IR and may have issues who knows. But clearly no matter who we brought in, they were a downgrade from Kemo.

Lewis was clearly our best interior linemen and had less sacks than usual because he had to play more read and react rather than penetrate because the middle was suspect without Kemo. Irvin, Tyler and whoever else will have to work very hard to match Lewis's production.

So far Moose was the starter because no one else was able to do the job. We didn't find a replacement for Moose the first time we got rid of him so we brought him back. Hopefully we find his replacement this time but our history at doing that is suspect.

The reality is that with the exception of Moore, no other position is distinctly better off. There will be guys who step up and those who don't. But to say we are better right now is drinking something a lot stronger than Koolaid.

When hoover was gone we still managed 144 yds a game. So obviosuly FB committe or sutton, whoever managd to do pretty well. So hoover isnt a big loss.

Lewis was average at best and should strictly be rotational. Also by saying how good Lewis was, you show that Louis and company could be just as good. Lewsi came in as a bust who was cut by the rams. If he can just come in and do well, why can't the rest who are under similar circumstances.

Bottom line all the players we had were solid at best. So while no, its not for certain they can be replaced, it's not like it would be that difficult to fill the void.

[panthers55]

When hoover was gone we still managed 144 yds a game. So obviosuly FB committe or sutton, whoever managd to do pretty well. So hoover isnt a big loss.

Lewis was average at best and should strictly be rotational. Also by saying how good Lewis was, you show that Louis and company could be just as good. Lewsi came in as a bust who was cut by the rams. If he can just come in and do well, why can't the rest who are under similar circumstances.

Bottom line all the players we had were solid at best. So while no, its not for certain they can be replaced, it's not like it would be that difficult to fill the void.

I understand you believe everything is fine but you haven't adrressed any of my issues. Fiametta was hurt more than Hoover so how was he an upgrade? if you are going to use a rushing stat use yards per carry not yards per game. total yards can be totally misleading and is based on how many times you run not how effective you were when you ran.

Lewis had one of his poorer years largely due to Kemo being hurt and he still had 41 tackles. Leonard Louis played in 2 game and Tyler played in 6 with less success than Lewis. Lets also remind folks neither have signed their tender as of today so they aren't even on our roster. Upgrades based on what? More like wishful thinking........

Our players weren't solid across the board last year and this crop who have to step up are even more suspect excluding Moore and perhaps Anderson/Connor. Anyone who would declare this group better than last year are more than optimistic, they are blinded by those rosy colored glasses. Could it work out? Anything is possible but many of them have a lot of improvement to make before they can even replace who we lost let alone be an upgrade.

[CRA]

i like fox, and i think he will be fine. nobody thouht he would take a 1 - 15 team to the superbowl in 2 years either. i think fox will lead us to the playoffs this year, and be extended

you may like Fox...but obviously what Fox is and does....hasn't proven to be enough for Jerry to back him. Seriously, name the last coach that was put in Fox's current situation that ended up getting an extension and remaining w/ a team?

Jerry is done with that era of Carolina football. 2010 is just about business and getting this team ready for some serious football post Fox. Under no logic is that claiming a team is tanking it or trying to lose.

You guys are banking on Fox doing something this year in an enviroment where Jerry is going to make it very hard for him to do such....and that is part of Jerry running a good business.

[ncbobcat]

Panthers Vs Eagles two teams adding through subtraction... NFC championship rematch maybe?

In 2013, 2012 maybe if no lockout. Both are planning for the future and not the present, though hoping for the best in the here and now.

[Woodie]

Fiametta only played in 10 games last year- less than Hoover and suffered a major concussion which has to be a bigger concern when your job is described as being a battering ram. Sutton came in out of necessity when Fiametta couldn't play. Not only can't he play as well, he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Fullback by committee may be what happens but it rarely is preferable to finding a consistent performer.

Yet Fiametta has not had the cumulative pounding that Hoover has taken here. And while we all like to think of Hoover like he used to be, the continuous pounding he has taken is starting to catch up to him. And while I agree that Sutton only came in out of necessity, and really isn't built to be a full time FB, he did show that he can come in and do well in a pinch. No doubt that FB by committee is not ideal, but neither is an aging FB in the process of breaking down that has become undependable. So based on the effect both options would have on the team, I'd say it's basically a push.

Diggs was solid and consistent. Sure we can say that Anderson and Conor are better but if they were, they would have played instead of being backups. Connor may be fine but he is still coming off an injury that often takes 2 years to fully recover and does effect your speed and lateral movement. just saying.............

Solid and consistent is another way of saying average. And we've seen enough out of both Anderson and Connor to say that they can at least be average players. And ACL's usually don't take two years to come back from anymore. Players are typically healed within 6-7 months from the time of the surgery, but it's the strengthening of the muscles that extends most recovery past that point. So, physically, there is no reason to think Connor won't be 100% this year. And with the medical and rehabilitation improvements, most players don't lose much of their speed or lateral movement anymore. Therefore, I think Connor is more than able to give us at least what Diggs did. Anderson might too, but I see him more as a WLB, so likely will continue to back up Davis.

As for Kemo- ever since he got hurt in 2008 and throughout 2009 our run defense was significantly worse than when Kemo was in there. Louis played 1 game and went on IR and may have issues who knows. But clearly no matter who we brought in, they were a downgrade from Kemo.

There were a lot more factors going into our struggles against the run than just losing Kemo. For instance, in 2008, we not only lost Kemo, but Lewis had serious shoulder problems and missed time as well, and we had to rely on PS scrub Hayden to start. In 2009, we were changing to a new defense and lost Kemo once we got to camp, so there weren't many immediate options to replace him available.

Don't get me wrong, Kemo was an important part of our run defense, but really, all he did was take up space and blockers, but little else. And while I don't think Leonard will give us what Kemo did against the run, he evens things up with his versatility and ability to play the ball better than Kemo, as well as get more push up the middle. Like I said, neither are world beaters, but I don't think we lose much by going with Leonard either. Not to mention that there is a very real chance that Kemo will never be the same player again after his achilles tear, so whatever he gave us before might be a moot point in this conversation.

Lewis was clearly our best interior linemen and had less sacks than usual because he had to play more read and react rather than penetrate because the middle was suspect without Kemo. Irvin, Tyler and whoever else will have to work very hard to match Lewis's production.

Is saying Lewis was our best interior lineman really saying all that much? He was solid, but that is all. That's why most everyone here felt he was a better fit as a backup playing in a rotation. And while I agree that currently Lewis is better than the guys we will replace him with, saying they will have to work very hard to match his production is a bit of an overstatement. His production was average, and like with the other positions we're talking about, the new guys should be able to provide average production...but unlike Lewis, they have the the potential to give much more.

For the record, I feel we still need a starting caliber DT since none of the guys we have have proven themselves to be anything but "just guys" (although I think Irvin has a lot more potential than many give him credit for)...however, I feel the exact same way about Lewis and Kemo. Which is why I don't think losing either makes us much, if any, worse than we were before. DT was alway a position in need of a major upgrade.

So far Moose was the starter because no one else was able to do the job. We didn't find a replacement for Moose the first time we got rid of him so we brought him back. Hopefully we find his replacement this time but our history at doing that is suspect.

No arguement here. We absolutely must find a decent #2...and possibly a #3 as well.

The reality is that with the exception of Moore, no other position is distinctly better off. There will be guys who step up and those who don't. But to say we are better right now is drinking something a lot stronger than Koolaid.

I agree that no position is distinctly better than it was before, but also no position (with the exception of DE) is distinctly worse than it was before. But, dropping the guys we did doesn't change our team needs one bit, IMO. I still see WR and DT as primary needs since we need guys that can potentially start. DE, LB, and QB are also high priority since we need to add depth there.