Tanking the season

[DaveThePanther2008]

oh look a internet tough guy! next you are going to tell me to meet you some where to show me how tough you are. guess what?? who cares? there is nothing you can do about me on this board!!! i can type whatever i want and you cant do anything about it! whats funny is that you could have answer my question just as simply as i answered yours. after you finish beating your wife , think about this, i said warm bodies because the people you listed havent even contributed to the team this year. also you think draft picks are going to come in and make huge impacts in the holes we have to fill this year? really?

Nope would be a waste of my time. Don't beat my wife so keep my family out of it. If you had any reading comprehension you would see the names I listed were NOT part of my 44. In other words NON Contributors. But you are in such a hurry to post your negative comment you didn't comprehend what I wrote.

Most of our rookies if they don't end up starting fill important depth roles. Am I wrong? Do you not follow this team as close as you think you do?

So for your homework go back and RE-READ Dick and Jane. Reading is fundamental. You should try it sometime.

[carolinanimal]

Nope would be a waste of my time. Don't beat my wife so keep my family out of it. If you had any reading comprehension you would see the names I listed were NOT part of my 44. In other words NON Contributors. But you are in such a hurry to post your negative comment you didn't comprehend what I wrote.

Most of our rookies if they don't end up starting fill important depth roles. Am I wrong? Do you not follow this team as close as you think you do?

So for your homework go back and RE-READ Dick and Jane. Reading is fundamental. You should try it sometime.

that is my point. do you think this team with just udfas and our draft picks is going to be a major contender? we have a lot of picks but they are low 6th and 7th rounders. if we are COUNTING on these then we will be in trouble.

[DaveThePanther2008]

BTW Carolina Animal

Your argument is like a lie. You flapped your lips just to put down someone else comments for the sake of doing it. You got called out and now just like a lie you are trying to justify it. You have no foundation so there is NOTHING to back it up with. Everything you now say, contradicts your original post.

So instead of continually arguing with me cause you got called out. Maybe you should go lick your wounds and try not to be such an ASS when you comment to other people you know NOTHING ABOUT.

I never come in this room and discredit or disrespect anyone until they do it to me. Your comment was like so many others in here. Trying to make others less knowledgable so you can be one of the big boys.. Maybe have someone throw you some PIE or REP. Cause you are so witty. I don't care about either.

You want to disagree with me, so be it. Don't discredit my comments with your thoughtless or factless comments. Back your comments up with some facts or reasons why your opinion is the way it is.

OTHERWISE DON'T COMMENT ON MY POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DaveThePanther2008]

that is my point. do you think this team with just udfas and our draft picks is going to be a major contender? we have a lot of picks but they are low 6th and 7th rounders. if we are COUNTING on these then we will be in trouble.

You have to go back and look at the past. Have we ever gone into the season with camp foder on our final roster. Not since Fox got here. So I would think that when training camp opens we are going to have a few more Free Agents and our draft picks. These guys will have the Panthers right were we always are. Ready to compete. Because we don't go out and sign 100 free agents doesn't mean we won't be a major contender. Go look at our roster. You will see over 35 draft picks. Plus another 7 or 8 solid players we have picked up through free agency. So this team primarily builds through the draft. Go to Panthers.com and you will see the roster yourself.

[vorbis]

Your not a sheep because you disagree with me, you are a sheep and that is why you disagree with me.

lol, this is f**king classic. try thinking next time. start by looking up the definition of the word "because"

aside from that, it's nice to see people making actual arguments in the latter stages of this thread. i think woodie has a pretty reasoned and realistic view of the offseason moves, and additionally i happen to feel similarly. there are reasonable and realistic arguments to be made for the contrary, but p55 certainly isn't making them.

you always need average players to fill important roles on your team, but you still want difference-makers. i just don't see where these difference-makers were on the free agency market aside from a few guys who the panthers would have gotten outbid on anyways.

and i also agree with woodie that a lot of the players that, as of now, will be expected to step into more important roles (fiammetta, leonard, tyler, connor, anderson, sutton) are currently average. the difference is they are young and de-fin-ite-ly possess the potential to become more than average. hell, fiammetta was a rookie. sutton has played 2 years. leonard has played 3 years. in most of these cases the panthers were never going to find out if they were more than average unless they gave them more responsibility and more snaps. what, you're going to draft a young player and let them be unimportant until they're too old to improve? why are you spending 3rd round picks and trading 4th and 5th round picks for these guys, then? there are acres of fat dudes who can stand up in the middle of the d-line and be average that are available at any point during any NFL season. and they're all dying to play. you give picks for guys you believe in and want to give a real chance to matter.

if the right player comes available after the draft and during training camp, then hurney and fox have shown the tendency to pick those guys up on the cheap. harris worked out great. sutton worked out really well for what they asked him to do. this is really not all that different from how the panthers have behaved in the past several offseasons. is it really all that surprising or OMG OMINOUS?

[DaveThePanther2008]

you always need average players to fill important roles on your team, but you still want difference-makers. ...and i also agree with woodie that a lot of the players that, as of now, will be expected to step into more important roles (fiammetta, leonard, tyler, connor, anderson, sutton) are currently average. the difference is they are young and de-fin-ite-ly possess the potential to become more than average. hell, fiammetta was a rookie. sutton has played 2 years. leonard has played 3 years. in most of these cases the panthers were never going to find out if they were more than average unless they gave them more responsibility and more snaps. what, you're going to draft a young player and let them be unimportant until they're too old to improve? why are you spending 3rd round picks and trading 4th and 5th round picks for these guys, then? there are acres of fat dudes who can stand up in the middle of the d-line and be average that are available at any point during any NFL season. and they're all dying to play. you give picks for guys you believe in and want to give a real chance to matter.

if the right player comes available after the draft and during training camp, then hurney and fox have shown the tendency to pick those guys up on the cheap. harris worked out great. sutton worked out really well for what they asked him to do. this is really not all that different from how the panthers have behaved in the past several offseasons. is it really all that surprising or OMG OMINOUS?

I agree with you vorbis. We build through the draft. I think the Front Office felt the young players on the roster were as good as the incumbents. We release them and allow them to fill the position they were drafted for. That is why it kills me for folks to want a DE when we drafted Brown just for the role he is about to play.

Thank god the Panthers seem to be more proactive than reactive. Most of our holes will be filled from within. Meaning players we drafted 1, 2, 3 years ago.

Good Post...

[panthers55]

lol, this is f**king classic. try thinking next time. start by looking up the definition of the word "because"

aside from that, it's nice to see people making actual arguments in the latter stages of this thread. i think woodie has a pretty reasoned and realistic view of the offseason moves, and additionally i happen to feel similarly. there are reasonable and realistic arguments to be made for the contrary, but p55 certainly isn't making them.

you always need average players to fill important roles on your team, but you still want difference-makers. i just don't see where these difference-makers were on the free agency market aside from a few guys who the panthers would have gotten outbid on anyways.

and i also agree with woodie that a lot of the players that, as of now, will be expected to step into more important roles (fiammetta, leonard, tyler, connor, anderson, sutton) are currently average. the difference is they are young and de-fin-ite-ly possess the potential to become more than average. hell, fiammetta was a rookie. sutton has played 2 years. leonard has played 3 years. in most of these cases the panthers were never going to find out if they were more than average unless they gave them more responsibility and more snaps. what, you're going to draft a young player and let them be unimportant until they're too old to improve? why are you spending 3rd round picks and trading 4th and 5th round picks for these guys, then? there are acres of fat dudes who can stand up in the middle of the d-line and be average that are available at any point during any NFL season. and they're all dying to play. you give picks for guys you believe in and want to give a real chance to matter.

if the right player comes available after the draft and during training camp, then hurney and fox have shown the tendency to pick those guys up on the cheap. harris worked out great. sutton worked out really well for what they asked him to do. this is really not all that different from how the panthers have behaved in the past several offseasons. is it really all that surprising or OMG OMINOUS?

I thought I was done here but will make one last post and let it go. First of all I don't think we are done for the year. We have the draft and the FA signing period after the draft. I never said we will won't try and fill the holes we have. Hurney has a job to do and he is doing the best he can given the marching orders he has been given. He recognizes that Fox's job is on the line and hasn't signed his extension yet from What I have read in somewhat of a leveraged attempt to convince Richardson to keep Fox.

No one is also arguing that you don'r need role players or guys who you find in the bargain basement or obtain by scouting every nook and cranny looking for talent. The Panthers have always done a good job of that. And for the most part we have gotten the most out of the guys we pick up like that.

THis whole discussion has morphed from the original concept that Richardson and the Panthers are purposely tanking the season into a number of bunny threads. MY discussion with Woodie was simply that his perception was that everyone we lost were average easily replaceable guys. My perception was while we had them on the team we all considered them pretty good and have devalued them to be average now that they were gone and wanted to discount their worth. Plus we were counting on their backups to all step in and play well which may or may not happen. Then we discussed that this whole thread didn't address the folks who complained that we always go for average and seem content to settle for being a contender in some years and otherwise settle for 8-8 or 7-9.

My concerns have been that this isn't business as usual, we got rid of a lot more starters than we every have in any year past- go do the homework. We are operating under a different set of priorities than we have in the past which is go cheap first and find talent secondly. And that we are under no financial crisis. We are one of the haves not the have nots and don't need to act like Tampa. And finally that the rest of the division by keeping their starters and players and not dumping them are already above us in terms of talent and seem content on getting better without going on the cheap.

THis is not an indictment of Fox or Hunrey but my feelings that Richardson is operating with a different agenda given his leadership role on the negotiating committee with the players and not about winning as in years before. And yes I think if you can't see that you are a sheep. All of the statements about it will be alright, the guys we lost are average, everyone will step up etc misses the real point. We are more worried about a lockout which the owners are in fact forcing on the players than we are in winning this year. And that most of this was avoidable if Richardson wanted to do it but he doesn't. If we end up okay this year it will be a real testament to the work Hurney and Fox and the coaching staff have done not to the flexibility and support given by Richardson this year.

That has been my point all along. Otherwise I am done until after the draft. Then I will have something new to talk about.

[carolinanimal]

BTW Carolina Animal

Your argument is like a lie. You flapped your lips just to put down someone else comments for the sake of doing it. You got called out and now just like a lie you are trying to justify it. You have no foundation so there is NOTHING to back it up with. Everything you now say, contradicts your original post.

So instead of continually arguing with me cause you got called out. Maybe you should go lick your wounds and try not to be such an ASS when you comment to other people you know NOTHING ABOUT.

I never come in this room and discredit or disrespect anyone until they do it to me. Your comment was like so many others in here. Trying to make others less knowledgable so you can be one of the big boys.. Maybe have someone throw you some PIE or REP. Cause you are so witty. I don't care about either.

You want to disagree with me, so be it. Don't discredit my comments with your thoughtless or factless comments. Back your comments up with some facts or reasons why your opinion is the way it is.

OTHERWISE DON'T COMMENT ON MY POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is my argument like a lie anymore than yours is like a lie? i didnt make my comment to put you down? you may have taken it that way, but i didnt do that. ask anyone on this board if that is my style. it is not. i dont personally attack or curse anyone out on this message board. what for? what good will that do anyway? my comment was simple and direct and all you had to do was answer it. i didnt curse at you or laugh or say you were a idiot.

as far as your comment , you posted a link to the roster. what does that even prove? everyone knows that we will eventually have to have a 53 man roster. What i am saying is that rookies will be backing up rookies or players with limited starting exp this year. god forbid we get hurt. all the backup on the dt position is really untested and also we dont know how the starters will perform for a full season not one of them.

as for our history, we have been drafting well. but we dont only build through the draft and then only pick up special team players before the draft. no team only builds through the draft unless they are completely set. we are not. we have major depth and starting holes to fill. if this is our history, show me a time where we have jettisoned so many starters from one area of the team and then NOT have a first round pick, and have not been active in fa agency and have had the holes we have?

[cookinbrak]

Remains to be seen? We already saw what it was like without Hoover, we were fine. Fimmeta and sutton have another year under there belt. So I cant see how we'd dropped at all.

How are we not consistent. We have a overall 4.8 rushing yds per attempt, second in the nfl.

Last season without Hoover...1-4

Last season with Hoover........7-4

20% wins= "we were fine"

If we can run the ball better, maybe Jake isn't passing so much, and maybe we win 2-3 of those games.

And before you start with "we avg x.x yards per rush", look at the game logs. You take away one long run in each game- DWill had a 66 and a 50 in losses to BUF and MIA- and our avg yards per rush drops in each game.

[MaineManPanther]

Last season without Hoover...1-4

Last season with Hoover........7-4

20% wins= "we were fine"

If we can run the ball better, maybe Jake isn't passing so much, and maybe we win 2-3 of those games.

And before you start with "we avg x.x yards per rush", look at the game logs. You take away one long run in each game- DWill had a 66 and a 50 in losses to BUF and MIA- and our avg yards per rush drops in each game.

Your using maybe's to back your argument. Maybe it doesnt effect it. Theres no way to prove it. So it doesnt hold alot of water. Its not like very game Hoover started in was great running. Look at the WAS or Philly game. We ran horrible with him starting. So who's to say him starting in the other wouldve made a difference running wise, let alone winning the whole game.

If we take away from the two longs runs we then we varage 4.6 yards per carry in those two games which is .2 below are average. But I could easily do the same thing in the games Hoover was in and make are ypc go down. What does it prove?