Tanking the season

[Woodie]

What is even funnier is that now suddenly all the guys we lost outside of Peppers are average and we are feeling great about the fact that we can replace them no problem. That suggests we replace average guys with more average guys. First of all I am not so sure they can replaced as easily as people assume. Then it ignores the whole issue that a bunch of posters last fall constantly whined and complained about how we settled for average last year and didn't have a killer instinct to win nor did we go out and get the players we needed to be tops in the league.

Some of these same posters are now either silent or touting how everything will be fine with these replacement and backups who are coming in to replace average guys.

What happened to all the angst and outrage about settling for average? Does that only count when talking about the record and not about personnel. Which assumes that there is no connection between the quality of your personnel and your ultimate record.

And how did our whole team outside of the guys still here suddenly become average or worse. And when did it become fine to just replace them with guys who weren't worse? What happened about going for the best players in the league? It is like we are celebrating mediocrity and being content that we might not get worse. A far cry from years past where we wanted to excel and get the players out there not avoid getting worse. Maybe we should consider ourselves Tampa Bay North. We want to improve as long as it fits into our budget.

I'll answer your other post, but I do want to be clear about one thing here. In no way am I saying we will be fine with what we have, nor am I satisfied with all of the replacements as all we need. I just don't think the guys we are replacing are nearly as good as you seem to feel. I felt before we even let anyone go that we needed to make some changes to improve our defense.

I've felt for a couple of years now that DT was our weak link on defense and have needed an upgrade. And I still feel that way, and honestly think we will get one. Saying we replaced average with average is not the same thing as being satisfied with those changes.

[Woodie]

I disagree about most of what you said but this sums it up. I am not as happy that we are replacing average guys with other guys who were their backups and we kept because they are cheap not better. I am not happy that by your own admission we will replace a bunch of avrage guys with more average guys if they actually improve enough to be average. And I don't agree that we couldn't have found a bunch of guys that would have made us better. The issue is it would have cost some money which Richardson isn't going to part with while he raises all our ticket prices.

See, the difference between you and me is that I do not see the moves we have made as the end game, but you are acting as if we are finished, and who we have is all we're going to get. Do I want to replace average guys with more average guys? No, that's why I clearly stated that DT is still a need area. But I also recognize that the average guys we had were past their prime and very unlikely to show anything more than what they already have...in fact, they will probably show decline, particularly Kemo who may never fully come back from his injury and Hoover who can't stay healthy anymore. But to clarify one thing, I didn't say they will be average if they improve enough, I said they are already at least average, but have the potential to be more. So we are no worse today than we were before we let this group of guys go. We're about even...and will use the draft and post-draft FA to improve.

Realistically, who should we have gotten? Sure it's easy to throw out general statements, but there were not that many quality players available in FA, and those that were got way overpaid. And just because we do not have a salary cap this year, doesn't mean they won't in the future. Teams still have to be fiscally responsible.

Haynesworth is available despite what Washington says if the price is right. That puts us out of the bidding. New Orleans knows they want to stay at the top so they invested in Brown last week. A guyw ho could have helped us a lot. They are 2 guys at positions of need that would have helped us tremendously. Do I need to go through the list of receivers we ignored or didn't even try for over the past several weeks while we sit here and try to tell everyone that Jarrett really is a good guy who will shine this year or that we can find a receiver in the draft that will instantly play for us despite the fact that it has never happened in the Fox era outside of Colbert who was pressed into service due to injury to others and mysteriously disappeared after one year.

Is Haynesworth available? There are mixed signals coming out of Washington. But even if he is, why would you want him. He's a problem child that didn't live up to his hype last year, just as many predicted. And how do you know we didn't make a strong push for Brown? There were reports that he was planning on visiting here, so obviously that had to come from somewhere. But he chose to visit NO first. Big surprise, they have a starting spot up for grabs, while it's common knowledge that we traded up for Everette Brown to eventually start, and Brayton is our incumbent starter with Johnson recognized as the likely future starter there. So there's no reason for Brown to come here and have high expectations to start like in NO. As for receiver, who did we miss on that wasn't overpaid or have red flags. Sure we could mortgage our future to go get Marshall, who offers more than we need at WR, and even more baggage. Or we could have traded for Boldin. But he still got a pretty hefty contract, and has had injury problems the last couple of years, so with his physical style he may be starting to break down. Not really a good bet...particularly since this is a very good year for receivers in the draft.

I seem to be in the minority but can't say I am thrilled with the budget cutting approach to putting a team on the field that won't suck but won't compete for a championship either. I understand the philosophy but don't agree with it at all. And frankly I am surprised as all the sheep who are blindly going along with everything and parroting the front office and are afraid to tell the emperor that he has on no clothes

Why is it that anyone who doesn't agree with you are sheep? It's obvious that some of us have thought about this quite a bit and have come to our conclusion that the moves make sense. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean we are parroting the FO, or looking through rose colored glasses saying everything is peachy. Speaking for myself, I see the warts on this team, I just don’t think the moves made so far are all that big a deal…and certainly not worth getting all in a huff about.

[panthers55]

See, the difference between you and me is that I do not see the moves we have made as the end game, but you are acting as if we are finished, and who we have is all we're going to get. Do I want to replace average guys with more average guys? No, that's why I clearly stated that DT is still a need area. But I also recognize that the average guys we had were past their prime and very unlikely to show anything more than what they already have...in fact, they will probably show decline, particularly Kemo who may never fully come back from his injury and Hoover who can't stay healthy anymore. But to clarify one thing, I didn't say they will be average if they improve enough, I said they are already at least average, but have the potential to be more. So we are no worse today than we were before we let this group of guys go. We're about even...and will use the draft and post-draft FA to improve.

Realistically, who should we have gotten? Sure it's easy to throw out general statements, but there were not that many quality players available in FA, and those that were got way overpaid. And just because we do not have a salary cap this year, doesn't mean they won't in the future. Teams still have to be fiscally responsible.

We could have gotten alot of guys who would make us better. But lets keep watching. I hope I am wrong but I expect us to pass over a bunch more guys who will be available and could help the team. It isn't business as usual and that is what you will figure out. We are going on the cheap and will take guys you never heard of and no names. Is that always bad? Depends on who you get instead. There is a difference between fiscal responsibility and going on the cheap. Lets be honest. where we losing money before? No!! We were one of the haves and with PSLs locking in all the seats we will continue to be. There is no reason to go on the cheap this year other than Richardson's desire to set the example when the owners go into negotiations. Right now we have to be 20-30 million under the 2009 cap even with all the dead cap money we lost with Jake and the veterans we cut.

Is Haynesworth available? There are mixed signals coming out of Washington. But even if he is, why would you want him. He's a problem child that didn't live up to his hype last year, just as many predicted. And how do you know we didn't make a strong push for Brown? There were reports that he was planning on visiting here, so obviously that had to come from somewhere. But he chose to visit NO first. Big surprise, they have a starting spot up for grabs, while it's common knowledge that we traded up for Everette Brown to eventually start, and Brayton is our incumbent starter with Johnson recognized as the likely future starter there. So there's no reason for Brown to come here and have high expectations to start like in NO. As for receiver, who did we miss on that wasn't overpaid or have red flags. Sure we could mortgage our future to go get Marshall, who offers more than we need at WR, and even more baggage. Or we could have traded for Boldin. But he still got a pretty hefty contract, and has had injury problems the last couple of years, so with his physical style he may be starting to break down. Not really a good bet...particularly since this is a very good year for receivers in the draft.

Lets be realistic here. We aren't going after Haynesworth because of the draft picks it would cost. Plus with our budget 13 million for 3 years is more than we are paying any of our defensive linemen right now. And Brown never even got here. Wiser teams like NO and Tampa were way ahead. And Boldin was too much money plain and simple. All the other excuses are just that. Excuses for the FO because they are handcuffed by Richardson crusade to go cheap.

[MaineManPanther]

Hoover was far above average when he played and was recognized by some as one of the best fullbacks in the league. Obviously he was getting injury prone but not someone who is easily replaced. I really think he was let go partly because he was so verbal in supporting Delhomme. As for the running game we are not really missing anyone else other than Vincent so the running game is likely the only part that won't change that much.

And what we have shown is that we run the ball whether it works or not. We are more of a persistent running team than a consistent running team.

As for not suffering in the run game it remains to be seen.

Remains to be seen? We already saw what it was like without Hoover, we were fine. Fimmeta and sutton have another year under there belt. So I cant see how we'd dropped at all.

How are we not consistent. We have a overall 4.8 rushing yds per attempt, second in the nfl.

[Woodie]

We could have gotten alot of guys who would make us better. But lets keep watching. I hope I am wrong but I expect us to pass over a bunch more guys who will be available and could help the team. It isn't business as usual and that is what you will figure out. We are going on the cheap and will take guys you never heard of and no names. Is that always bad? Depends on who you get instead. There is a difference between fiscal responsibility and going on the cheap. Lets be honest. where we losing money before? No!! We were one of the haves and with PSLs locking in all the seats we will continue to be. There is no reason to go on the cheap this year other than Richardson's desire to set the example when the owners go into negotiations. Right now we have to be 20-30 million under the 2009 cap even with all the dead cap money we lost with Jake and the veterans we cut.

Lets be realistic here. We aren't going after Haynesworth because of the draft picks it would cost. Plus with our budget 13 million for 3 years is more than we are paying any of our defensive linemen right now. And Brown never even got here. Wiser teams like NO and Tampa were way ahead. And Boldin was too much money plain and simple. All the other excuses are just that. Excuses for the FO because they are handcuffed by Richardson crusade to go cheap.

Your not a sheep because you disagree with me, you are a sheep and that is why you disagree with me. You just eat the crap being fed you and blindly believe that everything will be fine. And yeah you are parroting the FO and looking through rose colored glasses. Looking down the road waiting for Hurney to pull out a rabbit.

Hey don't despair maybe Hurney and Fox will make it happen and everything will be alright. I hope the draft is wildly successful and everything falls our way. And no you don't see the warts nor are you a great judge of talent or you wouldn't have argued for pages that who we lost was average and easily replaced. But I am done for this thread and will move on. Beating a dead horse for pages with no resolution or change in opinion is boring at best and annoying at worse. Its a beautiful day so I will sit out on the deck in the hot tub drinking a beer. Hope your evening is good too.:cheers2:

Lol. First of all, pretty much your entire argument is based on your own assumptions...despite having only a very limited amount of information to base them on. It's easy to make general statements about moves/non-moves, but without knowing the reason for those decisions, any opinion is empty. That doesn't mean they're not worthy of discussion on a message board, but they also shouldn't be stated as facts, and eventually lead to insults and frustration when others don't agree.

Sure, I agree that we are letting some guys go to cut a bit of salary, but how is that different than every other year. The only thing different is the fact that with the uncapped year, we were able to get rid of a couple more bad contracts than is normal. But even then, we have guys in place that the staff likes and feels can step up...whether you agree or not. Not only that, they understand that we still have the draft and post-draft FA/trades available to fill any holes...which, again, is fairly standard practice with this team.

To me, the problem is not that we are sheep for understanding this and patiently waiting to see how everything plays out, but some people's inability to recognizing that there is a bigger picture than their own opinion. Do I think Hurney is going to pull a rabbit out of his hat? No. Want to know why? Because we don't need a rabbit. We just need a few key pieces to fill in the gaps, and we should be fine. At least one decent receiver, another DT, and then fill in the depth. And before you put any words in my mouth, I am not saying all we need are those two positions and everything will be hunky-dory. We also need another DE to rotate with Brown, a vet QB to backup Moore, one or two backup LB, a returner (who I hope will be the same player as the WR), possibly another WR, DT, FB depending how the staff views guys that are currently on our roster. Heck, maybe even another CB. My position is simply that I understand the moves so far, and am willing to wait and see what they ultimately do before passing judgment.

Now I do agree with you in that it's time for this thread to end since we have begun to seriously digress from the main point.

[CRA]

Remains to be seen? We already saw what it was like without Hoover, we were fine. Fimmeta and sutton have another year under there belt. So I cant see how we'd dropped at all.

How are we not consistent. We have a overall 4.8 rushing yds per attempt, second in the nfl.

b/c if we were, we would have won games like the Miami one for example.

[Mjphillips86]

I mean obviosly we aren't trying to win... I have it on good authority that we want to lose 32 straight games overthe next two years to shut up those cocky ass Lions!

[MaineManPanther]

b/c if we were, we would have won games like the Miami one for example.

If were talking about running more in certain situations then I would understand. However Im under the assumption he meant we don't consistenly get production, and are more of a persistent push and push and a get small yards team.

[DaveThePanther2008]

so are we looking to just fill spots with warm bodies? :confused:

Where in my post did I say we were going to fill our roster with warm bodies. Do the F__ing math. 44 + 8 is 52 add Hudson and Aaron Francisco and we are at 54 on over the allowable final roster limit of 53. Meaning as usual we will have to cut a decent player.

Add the fact that we ALWAYS add a couple decent UDFA we always have to cut a good player.

If you don't have a decent comment STFU. A$$HOLE!!!!!:dita:

[carolinanimal]

Where in my post did I say we were going to fill our roster with warm bodies. Do the F__ing math. 44 + 8 is 52 add Hudson and Aaron Francisco and we are at 54 on over the allowable final roster limit of 53. Meaning as usual we will have to cut a decent player.

Add the fact that we ALWAYS add a couple decent UDFA we always have to cut a good player.

If you don't have a decent comment STFU. A$$HOLE!!!!!:dita:

little sensitive arent we??

so you think the squad we have current is a great squad? udfas are warm bodies. most wont make the team or will be on practice squad. just because we have been lucky with a couple doesnt mean we will always have such luck.

[DaveThePanther2008]

I believe i listed 10 or 12 players I thought were "warm Bodies" Including Hudson. Go look at the roster and see how many GOOD players I selected. Instead of running your mouth check it out. You'll see most of the 44 players I listed will be a Panther in 2010. Add the 8 draft picks who almost always make the team. We are looking to fill one or two spots.

Not sensitive at all. Just tired of smart A$$es like you who like to post counter comments just for the sake of being an A$$

[carolinanimal]

I believe i listed 10 or 12 players I thought were "warm Bodies" Including Hudson. Go look at the roster and see how many GOOD players I selected. Instead of running your mouth check it out. You'll see most of the 44 players I listed will be a Panther in 2010. Add the 8 draft picks who almost always make the team. We are looking to fill one or two spots.

are you basing this on draft picks we havent even picked yet? what if we pick 3 wr or no wr? not likely to happen. but to base it on the draft where anything can happen is crazy. i can run my mouth all i want on this board , thats why this is america. i asked you a simple question and you went off like a chick on her period. i didnt curse or say anything out of the way to you.

[DaveThePanther2008]

are you basing this on draft picks we havent even picked yet? what if we pick 3 wr or no wr? not likely to happen. but to base it on the draft where anything can happen is crazy. i can run my mouth all i want on this board , thats why this is america. i asked you a simple question and you went off like a chick on her period. i didnt curse or say anything out of the way to you.

More stupid comments. Go look at our recent draft choices. How many have we cut? NONE. So based on our recent trend you could conclude that the 8 choices we make in 10 days will make the team.

No I went off cause you ran your mouth like a bitch interfering in a conversations she knew nothing about. If you can't comment with some fact,, Be like a good little bitch and keep your mouth shut.

[carolinanimal]

More stupid comments. Go look at our recent draft choices. How many have we cut? NONE. So based on our recent trend you could conclude that the 8 choices we make in 10 days will make the team.

No I went off cause you ran your mouth like a bitch interfering in a conversations she knew nothing about. If you can't comment with some fact,, Be like a good little bitch and keep your mouth shut.

oh look a internet tough guy! next you are going to tell me to meet you some where to show me how tough you are. guess what?? who cares? there is nothing you can do about me on this board!!! i can type whatever i want and you cant do anything about it! whats funny is that you could have answer my question just as simply as i answered yours. after you finish beating your wife , think about this, i said warm bodies because the people you listed havent even contributed to the team this year. also you think draft picks are going to come in and make huge impacts in the holes we have to fill this year? really?