Tanking the season

[AceMan]

Tanking the season = Keeping Delhomme on the roster

I think people have a reason to be optimistic and pessimistic about the upcoming season so far. Very risky move. Youth movement was probably foreshadowed at the end of the season speech Fox gave the players saying "Alot of players that shouldn't have played got to play." or something like that. Whether we're better or not, this upcoming season...we won't be burying any players which is a fatal flaw of Fox. I really believe that youth movement came from JR and Morrison.

I do agree with CRA that this season, JR is looking past it which I don't blame him one bit. It is a "it is what it is" type of season. If we do good, great. If we do bad, sucks. It was time for a change though and we made it.

[MaineManPanther]

I understand you believe everything is fine but you haven't adrressed any of my issues. Fiametta was hurt more than Hoover so how was he an upgrade? if you are going to use a rushing stat use yards per carry not yards per game. total yards can be totally misleading and is based on how many times you run not how effective you were when you ran.

Lewis had one of his poorer years largely due to Kemo being hurt and he still had 41 tackles. Leonard Louis played in 2 game and Tyler played in 6 with less success than Lewis. Lets also remind folks neither have signed their tender as of today so they aren't even on our roster. Upgrades based on what? More like wishful thinking........

Our players weren't solid across the board last year and this crop who have to step up are even more suspect excluding Moore and perhaps Anderson/Connor. Anyone who would declare this group better than last year are more than optimistic, they are blinded by those rosy colored glasses. Could it work out? Anything is possible but many of them have a lot of improvement to make before they can even replace who we lost let alone be an upgrade.

The yards per carry was over 5 yds. Im not saying we have a upgrade, what Im saying is regardless of who is there, we have proven we can run. So wether Fimmatea and sutton or both do great or not, its not like the run game will suffer.

I never said these are definte upgrades. The point Im making is all the players we released werent anything above average, so its not hard to assume that theres a good chance of these players matching the talent.

[panthers55]

Yet Fiametta has not had the cumulative pounding that Hoover has taken here. And while we all like to think of Hoover like he used to be, the continuous pounding he has taken is starting to catch up to him. And while I agree that Sutton only came in out of necessity, and really isn't built to be a full time FB, he did show that he can come in and do well in a pinch. No doubt that FB by committee is not ideal, but neither is an aging FB in the process of breaking down that has become undependable. So based on the effect both options would have on the team, I'd say it's basically a push.

I hope Fiametta does well this year. But getting rid of Hoover was a mistake that will be realized as the season unfolds. Worse is that Hoover was cheap relatively and going to retire after this season anyway.

Solid and consistent is another way of saying average. And we've seen enough out of both Anderson and Connor to say that they can at least be average players. And ACL's usually don't take two years to come back from anymore. Players are typically healed within 6-7 months from the time of the surgery, but it's the strengthening of the muscles that extends most recovery past that point. So, physically, there is no reason to think Connor won't be 100% this year. And with the medical and rehabilitation improvements, most players don't lose much of their speed or lateral movement anymore. Therefore, I think Connor is more than able to give us at least what Diggs did. Anderson might too, but I see him more as a WLB, so likely will continue to back up Davis.

Solid and consistent isn't average or everyone would be that. It is mark of a veteran who has performed at a high level and been the starter even though he gets written off every year as over the hill. I hear he is pencilled in as the starter in St Louis right now.

And I had ACL surgery and am well aware of the recovery. Recovery is better than it used to be when I hurt mine, but it takes longer to get fully back that people think. Then there is the confidence issue that you can cut on it and push it without worrying about a relapse. As for Connors or Anderson taking over for Diggs, I hope so. It is far from a given at this point though. They will both have to work very hard to be able to read and react as well as Diggs did after so many years of experience.

There were a lot more factors going into our struggles against the run than just losing Kemo. For instance, in 2008, we not only lost Kemo, but Lewis had serious shoulder problems and missed time as well, and we had to rely on PS scrub Hayden to start. In 2009, we were changing to a new defense and lost Kemo once we got to camp, so there weren't many immediate options to replace him available.

Don't get me wrong, Kemo was an important part of our run defense, but really, all he did was take up space and blockers, but little else. And while I don't think Leonard will give us what Kemo did against the run, he evens things up with his versatility and ability to play the ball better than Kemo, as well as get more push up the middle. Like I said, neither are world beaters, but I don't think we lose much by going with Leonard either. Not to mention that there is a very real chance that Kemo will never be the same player again after his achilles tear, so whatever he gave us before might be a moot point in this conversation.

Is saying Lewis was our best interior lineman really saying all that much? He was solid, but that is all. That's why most everyone here felt he was a better fit as a backup playing in a rotation. And while I agree that currently Lewis is better than the guys we will replace him with, saying they will have to work very hard to match his production is a bit of an overstatement. His production was average, and like with the other positions we're talking about, the new guys should be able to provide average production...but unlike Lewis, they have the the potential to give much more.

For the record, I feel we still need a starting caliber DT since none of the guys we have have proven themselves to be anything but "just guys" (although I think Irvin has a lot more potential than many give him credit for)...however, I feel the exact same way about Lewis and Kemo. Which is why I don't think losing either makes us much, if any, worse than we were before. DT was alway a position in need of a major upgrade.

Kemo was the issue in 2008 and again in 2009 plain and simple. The game he goes down against the Giants we give up a franchise record on the ground and really didn't recover. Lewis got hurt in 2008 and was not himself in 2009 because Kemo didn't occupy 2 guys allowing him to play the 3 technique where he is much more effective. When he had to take on 2 guys he got steamrolled too often. It isn't his game. And yeah it is saying something that Lewis was our best interior guy last year. The whole argument being made that the old starters weren't so great and therefore we aren't losing much is fallacious at best. The guys we lost were all starters and the best we had. The replacements are just that. Guys not good enough to start who will have to step up their game significantly just to replace the guys gone. At this point none of them are upgrades at all.

As for needing a dominant DT, try getting the word to Hurney. We surely don't seem to be doing any thing at this point.

No arguement here. We absolutely must find a decent #2...and possibly a #3 as well.

I agree that no position is distinctly better than it was before, but also no position (with the exception of DE) is distinctly worse than it was before. But, dropping the guys we did doesn't change our team needs one bit, IMO. I still see WR and DT as primary needs since we need guys that can potentially start. DE, LB, and QB are also high priority since we need to add depth there.

That is where we disagree. I agree that no position is better with the exception of Moore but disagree that no position is worse. One doesn't follow the other. We are clearly worse at several positions. How many that ends up being still remains to be seen. But so far we have had subtraction without addition and as you mention we have several needs to fill. I am still waiting for Hurney to pull some rabbits out of his hat.

[panthers55]

The yards per carry was over 5 yds. Im not saying we have a upgrade, what Im saying is regardless of who is there, we have proven we can run. So wether Fimmatea and sutton or both do great or not, its not like the run game will suffer.

I never said these are definte upgrades. The point Im making is all the players we released werent anything above average, so its not hard to assume that theres a good chance of these players matching the talent.

Hoover was far above average when he played and was recognized by some as one of the best fullbacks in the league. Obviously he was getting injury prone but not someone who is easily replaced. I really think he was let go partly because he was so verbal in supporting Delhomme. As for the running game we are not really missing anyone else other than Vincent so the running game is likely the only part that won't change that much.

And what we have shown is that we run the ball whether it works or not. We are more of a persistent running team than a consistent running team.

As for not suffering in the run game it remains to be seen.

[Wither]

didnt beason say in his blog or article that rebuilding isnt a bad thing if he didnt chris harris sure was mad. dont we consider him a leader now?

that is the point! what HAS the team done to improve? we havent added anything we have any kind of reference for. i am not saying we will suck. but how can you count upgrades off of rookies, backups and guys coming off ir?

They may have not done much to improve, but they also haven't done much that has taken away form the team.

Also, this thread is still alive?

[Future of the Funchise]

It's alive... This thread... It's still alive?

Bride of Wasteoftime?

[Woodie]

I hope Fiametta does well this year. But getting rid of Hoover was a mistake that will be realized as the season unfolds. Worse is that Hoover was cheap relatively and going to retire after this season anyway.

Like I said, I basically think it is a wash between what Hoover can now give us and what we have to replace him with, so I can understand why the team let him go. That doesn't mean I don't wish he could have played one more year and retired a Panther, I do, but mainly on an emotional and loyalty level.

Solid and consistent isn't average or everyone would be that. It is mark of a veteran who has performed at a high level and been the starter even though he gets written off every year as over the hill. I hear he is pencilled in as the starter in St Louis right now.

And I had ACL surgery and am well aware of the recovery. Recovery is better than it used to be when I hurt mine, but it takes longer to get fully back that people think. Then there is the confidence issue that you can cut on it and push it without worrying about a relapse. As for Connors or Anderson taking over for Diggs, I hope so. It is far from a given at this point though. They will both have to work very hard to be able to read and react as well as Diggs did after so many years of experience.

If you're saying that Diggs was anything but average, then I think you are way over valuing what he brought to the table. IMO, he's the definition of average. And while I respect what he has done for us, I also recognize that he can be replaced...although I will admit that part of my feelings here are because I saw enough in Connor that I think he can step right in without missing a beat.

I do agree that the mental part of ACL recovery is a big factor. But a lot of that goes to how strong minded the injured player is. Also, pro athlete's have access to methods and equipment that the average person does not...not to mention the dedicated personnel and time they have to get the most out of rehab they can. So generally, I think they tend to have a significantly faster recovery time than most people. With Connor, I would probably be more concerned if he wasn't already almost two years removed from his injury, as well as playing all of last season with no apparent problems. Going into last season, he admitted, that he really wasn't able to prepare as he would have liked because his off-season was spent pretty much only on his rehab. But he said this year he's healthy and can devote much of the off-season to preparing for the season.

Kemo was the issue in 2008 and again in 2009 plain and simple. The game he goes down against the Giants we give up a franchise record on the ground and really didn't recover. Lewis got hurt in 2008 and was not himself in 2009 because Kemo didn't occupy 2 guys allowing him to play the 3 technique where he is much more effective. When he had to take on 2 guys he got steamrolled too often. It isn't his game. And yeah it is saying something that Lewis was our best interior guy last year. The whole argument being made that the old starters weren't so great and therefore we aren't losing much is fallacious at best. The guys we lost were all starters and the best we had. The replacements are just that. Guys not good enough to start who will have to step up their game significantly just to replace the guys gone. At this point none of them are upgrades at all.

As for needing a dominant DT, try getting the word to Hurney. We surely don't seem to be doing any thing at this point.

See, I don't agree at all. Kemo went down against the Giants, but so did Lewis. In fact, Lewis had been playing on basically one arm for awhile, so that was a significant factor in our struggles on defense (which obviously included run defense). Playing with both of your starting DT's out and having to rely on PS guys to fill in will logically cause your defensive production to be hurt...it wasn't as simple as just missing Kemo. And to dismiss the change in defensive scheme and overabundance of injuries to our DT's (other than Kemo) as not big reasons for last year's struggles is hugely off the mark.

I like Lewis, and think he would make a fine backup, but really, he's nothing special. He was a starter by default. Just because we had no one better doesn't make him more than he was. That's more of an indictment on who else we had on the roster at the time than how good Lewis was. So losing Lewis and Kemo just means that we lost two average players that did not produce anywhere near enough to warrant the hype they are getting. Just because we were used to them doesn't mean they can't easily be replaced.

That is where we disagree. I agree that no position is better with the exception of Moore but disagree that no position is worse. One doesn't follow the other. We are clearly worse at several positions. How many that ends up being still remains to be seen. But so far we have had subtraction without addition and as you mention we have several needs to fill. I am still waiting for Hurney to pull some rabbits out of his hat.

The way I see it, it's like we replaced a five dollar bill with five ones. Different, with one looking better than the others, but basically both having the same value.

I am also not overly concerned with our lack of activity in FA because I really don't think most of the guys we could have picked up would have had much of an impact on our season. And the handful of guys that might have, demanded far more than they were worth or had other red flags that made them somewhat unappealing.

[DaveThePanther2008]

If you look at our roster we currently have about 44 players that are guaranteed to be on the roster next season.

http://www.panthers.com/team/roster.html

Not included in my 44 are

Culberson, Q - LB

Davis, CJ - OG

Hudson, M. - S (Though should make it)

Ivy, M. - LB

Jackson, D - WR

Justice, S - C

Landri, D - DT

Martin, C. - WR

Moore, E - DE

Petiti, R - OT

Senn, J - LB

Walker, M - CB

Warren, B - LB

Wright, W - WR

Our 8 draft picks plus a veteran QB will fill those 53 spots. Add the UDFA and a couple more Free Agents we sign and we will go into the pre-season looking to cut some decent players as we have for the last 5 or 6 seasons.

[carolinanimal]

If you look at our roster we currently have about 44 players that are guaranteed to be on the roster next season.

http://www.panthers.com/team/roster.html

Not included in my 44 are

Culberson, Q - LB

Davis, CJ - OG

Hudson, M. - S (Though should make it)

Ivy, M. - LB

Jackson, D - WR

Justice, S - C

Landri, D - DT

Martin, C. - WR

Moore, E - DE

Petiti, R - OT

Senn, J - LB

Walker, M - CB

Warren, B - LB

Wright, W - WR

Our 8 draft picks plus a veteran QB will fill those 53 spots. Add the UDFA and a couple more Free Agents we sign and we will go into the pre-season looking to cut some decent players as we have for the last 5 or 6 seasons.

so are we looking to just fill spots with warm bodies? :confused:

[carolinanimal]

whats up with this idea that we had average players on the 10th ranked d last year? i guess if you dont make a probowl last year you are average!!

if they were so average, what does that say about their backups??

even if the backups were awesome, none of us know that based on the 1 or 2 games they played plus coming of ir. how can anyone automatically assume that tank or tyler are better than lewis or kemo and they havent even played more than 3 years in the league and hardly played for us before they got injured. Lets wait until the recover fully and play full time before we anoint them!

[panthers55]

whats up with this idea that we had average players on the 10th ranked d last year? i guess if you dont make a probowl last year you are average!!

if they were so average, what does that say about their backups??

even if the backups were awesome, none of us know that based on the 1 or 2 games they played plus coming of ir. how can anyone automatically assume that tank or tyler are better than lewis or kemo and they havent even played more than 3 years in the league and hardly played for us before they got injured. Lets wait until the recover fully and play full time before we anoint them!

What is even funnier is that now suddenly all the guys we lost outside of Peppers are average and we are feeling great about the fact that we can replace them no problem. That suggests we replace average guys with more average guys. First of all I am not so sure they can replaced as easily as people assume. Then it ignores the whole issue that a bunch of posters last fall constantly whined and complained about how we settled for average last year and didn't have a killer instinct to win nor did we go out and get the players we needed to be tops in the league.

Some of these same posters are now either silent or touting how everything will be fine with these replacement and backups who are coming in to replace average guys.

What happened to all the angst and outrage about settling for average? Does that only count when talking about the record and not about personnel. Which assumes that there is no connection between the quality of your personnel and your ultimate record.

And how did our whole team outside of the guys still here suddenly become average or worse. And when did it become fine to just replace them with guys who weren't worse? What happened about going for the best players in the league? It is like we are celebrating mediocrity and being content that we might not get worse. A far cry from years past where we wanted to excel and get the players out there not avoid getting worse. Maybe we should consider ourselves Tampa Bay North. We want to improve as long as it fits into our budget.

[panthers55]

The way I see it, it's like we replaced a five dollar bill with five ones. Different, with one looking better than the others, but basically both having the same value.

I am also not overly concerned with our lack of activity in FA because I really don't think most of the guys we could have picked up would have had much of an impact on our season. And the handful of guys that might have, demanded far more than they were worth or had other red flags that made them somewhat unappealing.

I disagree about most of what you said but this sums it up. I am not as happy that we are replacing average guys with other guys who were their backups and we kept because they are cheap not better. I am not happy that by your own admission we will replace a bunch of avrage guys with more average guys if they actually improve enough to be average. And I don't agree that we couldn't have found a bunch of guys that would have made us better. The issue is it would have cost some money which Richardson isn't going to part with while he raises all our ticket prices.

Haynesworth is available despite what Washington says if the price is right. That puts us out of the bidding. New Orleans knows they want to stay at the top so they invested in Brown last week. A guyw ho could have helped us a lot. They are 2 guys at positions of need that would have helped us tremendously. Do I need to go through the list of receivers we ignored or didn't even try for over the past several weeks while we sit here and try to tell everyone that Jarrett really is a good guy who will shine this year or that we can find a receiver in the draft that will instantly play for us despite the fact that it has never happened in the Fox era outside of Colbert who was pressed into service due to injury to others and mysteriously disappeared after one year.

I seem to be in the minority but can't say I am thrilled with the budget cutting approach to putting a team on the field that won't suck but won't compete for a championship either. I understand the philosophy but don't agree with it at all. And frankly I am surprised as all the sheep who are blindly going along with everything and parroting the front office and are afraid to tell the emperor that he has on no clothes.

[beastson]

Disagreed with Damione. Hoover was a bad move period, dont care about business. I disliked to see Kemo go, but that one I wont argue

Harris isn't older. He's only 27 lol

[Woodie]

whats up with this idea that we had average players on the 10th ranked d last year? i guess if you dont make a probowl last year you are average!!

if they were so average, what does that say about their backups??

even if the backups were awesome, none of us know that based on the 1 or 2 games they played plus coming of ir. how can anyone automatically assume that tank or tyler are better than lewis or kemo and they havent even played more than 3 years in the league and hardly played for us before they got injured. Lets wait until the recover fully and play full time before we anoint them!

No every player on the defense wasn't average, but some were. That doesn't mean they were bad players, just that they are the types of players that can easily be replaced. And neither Lewis nor Kemo are being replaced by their backups. Leonard, Tyler, and Johnson weren't even on the roster when Kemo went down, and Irvin was a raw rookie that most everyone recognized as needing a year to develop, so was not expected to compete for playing time until this season.

And I truly understand your point about not automatically assuming anything about these guys. But I, for one, saw enough of Tyler and Leonard to feel they can be AT LEAST average, and potentially a bit more. While Irvin is raw, he has the potential to eventually be a very good starter, and Johnson was already a solid starter in Meeks defense...he just has to get his head back into it.

Listen, I'm not sitting here trying to sell anyone on the fact that these guys will be anything special, the furthest I've gone is to talk about their potential. But the point of this discussion is not about whether or not any of them will be superstars, or even upgrades, but are they worse than the guys they are replacing. And I just don't think they are. They are replacing guys who are either average or undependable due to age and injury. So the bar is not set particularly high. But I also don't think we are done. I fully expect us to add one or two more guys on the DL and bring in a couple of WR's, as well as LB's, a QB, and possibly another lead blocker. But that last one is entirely dependent on how satisfied they are with Fiametta's health and development, and if not, whether they feel they can get the desired results by other means. I just don't think the moves made thus far are all that big a deal. I don't think they have done anything to really improve us (except on ST), but I also don't think they will hurt us either. Basically, I just think it is a wash...a wash that is still in it's unfinished cycle. But we'll see.