Who impressed & who needs to get his ass cut (Preseason week 1)

[WestPanthers]

Patriots just cut Ju Ju Smith ........ Anyone? 

[AceBoogie]

14 hours ago, Manna said:

We need to bring in a QB who can push and has the capability of replacing Bryce, not back him up. He needs a fire lit under him. 

Yea because there’s an abundance of those. Look at all the mediocre QBs who you just got 40m+. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

2 minutes ago, AceBoogie said:

Yea because there’s an abundance of those. Look at all the mediocre QBs who you just got 40m+. 

The patriots played 4 of them last night.  One of them won’t make the team.

[strato]

3 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Ok well then that would take me back to my original question of how many late round QBs have amounted to anything beyond journeyman back-up QB?  If you want to argue that it's a worthwhile investment to keep spending late round picks on developmental QBs then I would expect you to at least give a few examples of franchise QBs taken in the 5th-7th rounds (again, other than Brady).  I mean we could maybe eventually say Brock Purdy if he continues to perform admirably, but people in here are adamant that he's a bum who is carried by his supporting cast anyways so I doubt that's the type of QB they are hoping for when they advocate for drafting late-round developmental QBs.  Sam Howell I guess is someone whose career is worth keeping an eye on, but it's not a great start so far considering his team shipped him away one year after drafting him for a negligible return.

I spent a little bit of time trying to look into it and it looks like we're having to go back to the late 90s/early 2000s for success stories like superstars Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck, and Ryan Fitzgerald - basically fringe starters when they were at their peak.  Maybe Hasselbeck could've been considered a franchise QB in his day, but I don't think he'd cut it in the present era.  

How many 7th rounders have we had to really contribute? Munnerlyn, I think Norman was 5th? Maybe 6th. 

I just don’t see a 6th or 7th round miss as causing a significant drag on roster maintenance when the difference between there and UDFAs isn’t really that great. You can pick those guys up in cuts very often, too. 

So I guess I’ll take my team and do what I want and you take your and do what you want and we’ll see. Except we don’t have teams. But I am all over taking a shot because even though hitting on it it is rare, it could still happen. If I like the way the player sitting there looks I am not gonna ignore him. 

[strato]

4 minutes ago, AceBoogie said:

Yea because there’s an abundance of those. Look at all the mediocre QBs who you just got 40m+. 

What do you think it takes to push him? We getting ready to find out how good he really is but so far I don’t see it taking a lot. 

Someone besides Dalton, who is obviously a better player but comes in saying it is Bryce’s job, before Bryce ever took a snap. He ain’t pushin’ anybody. 

[ForJimmy]

1 minute ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

The patriots played 4 of them last night.  One of them won’t make the team.

I'd be a little cautious though.  They were playing against guys that might not make our team and our depth sucks.  Zappe should have picked them apart given his experience.  Milton hit a nice open WR with about 4 seconds in the pocket, he almost threw a pick 6 too.  I wouldn't be championing for their QBs so soon.  I would imagine Zappe is the odd man out and I'm not sure if he brings much to us as QB3.  A higher upside QB would make more sense.  The Pats QBs are just the Huddle's crush of the week.

[ForJimmy]

5 minutes ago, strato said:

How many 7th rounders have we had to really contribute? Munnerlyn, I think Norman was 5th? Maybe 6th. 

I just don’t see a 6th or 7th round miss as causing a significant drag on roster maintenance when the difference between there and UDFAs isn’t really that great. You can pick those guys up in cuts very often, too. 

So I guess I’ll take my team and do what I want and you take your and do what you want and we’ll see. Except we don’t have teams. But I am all over taking a shot because even though hitting on it it is rare, it could still happen. If I like the way the player sitting there looks I am not gonna ignore him. 

I think you are talking about starters specifically.  He is saying a lot of these late round guys are good special team players for us.  QB3 is probably not seeing the field at all outside of preseason.  Sorry to interrupt, but both of you two have great points I think you are both talking about different situations though. 

I will say this.  With the 17 game and now possibly 18 game season, backup QBs are becoming more important because there is a high chance they will be playing a game or two.  That probably makes the QB3 more important than in recent history. 

[Jackie Lee]

4 minutes ago, strato said:

How many 7th rounders have we had to really contribute? Munnerlyn, I think Norman was 5th? Maybe 6th. 

I just don’t see a 6th or 7th round miss as causing a significant drag on roster maintenance when the difference between there and UDFAs isn’t really that great. You can pick those guys up in cuts very often, too. 

So I guess I’ll take my team and do what I want and you take your and do what you want and we’ll see. Except we don’t have teams. But I am all over taking a shot because even though hitting on it it is rare, it could still happen. If I like the way the player sitting there looks I am not gonna ignore him. 

Also by the 5th or 6th round you might be looking at 3-5 qb's left worth even giving a shot, and if I liked one I'd much rather go ahead and secure it in the draft and find some back DT in udfa. Much easier to secure a random DT in udfa than one of a few QB's that probably have multiple offers in better landing spots than here

[Jackie Lee]

7 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I'd be a little cautious though.  They were playing against guys that might not make our team and our depth sucks.  Zappe should have picked them apart given his experience.  Milton hit a nice open WR with about 4 seconds in the pocket, he almost threw a pick 6 too.  I wouldn't be championing for their QBs so soon.  I would imagine Zappe is the odd man out and I'm not sure if he brings much to us as QB3.  A higher upside QB would make more sense.  The Pats QBs are just the Huddle's crush of the week.

I started a preseason thread just for the purpose of keeping an eye on possible waiver wire guys, not only Qb's but those will be the easiest to keep an eye on. 3 games tonight that all have better qb depth than us. I doubt I'm going to watch much of it but if a backup qb is lighting up twitter I'll share it on the thread

[MasterAwesome]

2 minutes ago, strato said:

How many 7th rounders have we had to really contribute? Munnerlyn, I think Norman was 5th? Maybe 6th. 

I just don’t see a 6th or 7th round miss as causing a significant drag on roster maintenance when the difference between there and UDFAs isn’t really that great. You can pick those guys up in cuts very often, too. 

So I guess I’ll take my team and do what I want and you take your and do what you want and we’ll see. Except we don’t have teams. But I am all over taking a shot because even though hitting on it it is rare, it could still happen. If I like the way the player sitting there looks I am not gonna ignore him. 

But then that goes back to my point about the draft board.  No team is going into the NFL draft room with a cheat sheet about NFL positional hit rates and all that kinda hindsight statistical noise.  The philosophy of "none of these guys are likely to amount to anything so let's take shots at developing a QB" is such a fan-oriented position that I think NFL organizations (good and bad) would strongly oppose.  Teams are looking at each prospect as individuals and drafting based on how much they like a guy and the potential they see in them.  You are advocating for teams to essentially ignore their draft board and their scouting to just take shots at QBs they objectively value less until they hit - because otherwise if a team did have whatever QB at the top of their draft boards relative to where they are drafting, then they would simply take that QB.  If a team likes a particular guy and doesn't want to risk them getting drafted or having to compete with other teams to sign him as an undrafted FA, then that's exactly what those late round picks are for.  Your argument of "oh you can just pick up a similar undrafted guy later" ignores that these drafted players are hand-picked by their teams for a specific reason.  I don't think teams are going "well hmm...I guess we're thin at OT.  Let's just take a random one in the 7th".

Also, back-up QBs (in an ideal world where your starter stays healthy) are among the lowest contributors to the team unless you want to get into arbitrary hard-to-measure metrics like "how much they pushed the starting QB in competition".  Even 4th string linebackers playing Special Teams contribute more on the field than back-up QBs.  So again, contributions are on a spectrum rather than saying so-and-so players didn't become starters so let's bucket them all in the same category.

[MHS831]

16 hours ago, Captroop said:

Okay, that was like watching old people f***,

Is this statement open for questioning?

[strato]

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I think you are talking about starters specifically.  He is saying a lot of these late round guys are good special team players for us.  QB3 is probably not seeing the field at all outside of preseason.  Sorry to interrupt, but both of you two have great points I think you are both talking about different situations though. 

I will say this.  With the 17 game and now possibly 18 game season, backup QBs are becoming more important because there is a high chance they will be playing a game or two.  That probably makes the QB3 more important than in recent history. 

I am talking potential starters, yeah. Knowing the low success rate.

You can find ST players all day though. Maybe a particular year there is a need for a ST guy that you know really would never be a starter but fills a role that season.. sure. I think every pick you have you hope to turn into a starter. 

This isn’t me saying it is blindfold and swing at a QB every year just because he is a QB. I am saying if you see something think you can work with it is worth a shot. Especially with an offensive minded QB centric staff that has some QB coaching ability. 

I’m cool with you not thinking it is the way to go. I’m sticking to it though. 

 

[strato]

1 minute ago, MasterAwesome said:

But then that goes back to my point about the draft board.  No team is going into the NFL draft room with a cheat sheet about NFL positional hit rates and all that kinda hindsight statistical noise.  The philosophy of "none of these guys are likely to amount to anything so let's take shots at developing a QB" is such a fan-oriented position that I think NFL organizations (good and bad) would strongly oppose.  Teams are looking at each prospect as individuals and drafting based on how much they like a guy and the potential they see in them.  You are advocating for teams to essentially ignore their draft board and their scouting to just take shots at QBs they objectively value less until they hit - because otherwise if a team did have whatever QB at the top of their draft boards relative to where they are drafting, then they would simply take that QB.  If a team likes a particular guy and doesn't want to risk them getting drafted or having to compete with other teams to sign him as an undrafted FA, then that's exactly what those late round picks are for.  Your argument of "oh you can just pick up a similar undrafted guy later" ignores that these drafted players are hand-picked by their teams for a specific reason.  I don't think teams are going "well hmm...I guess we're thin at OT.  Let's just take a random one in the 7th".

Also, back-up QBs (in an ideal world where your starter stays healthy) are among the lowest contributors to the team unless you want to get into arbitrary hard-to-measure metrics like "how much they pushed the starting QB in competition".  Even 4th string linebackers playing Special Teams contribute more on the field than back-up QBs.  So again, contributions are on a spectrum rather than saying so-and-so players didn't become starters so let's bucket them all in the same category.

So I am a lowly fan unsophisticated in the building of .500 teams on a good day.  Let’s see what happens with Rattler, with some of these guys that were projected third rounders and go to freefall. 

The idea, where in this discussion it went another way, is that this is an asset development game. QBs are top currency. Develop some. Trade them. Pats did it successfully more than once.

[MHS831]

I am not going to question the hiring of Canales after the first preseason game.  Evero is a great DC, but that does not always translate to a great HC.  Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, Cam Cameron, Buddy Ryan, Dom Capers (arguably), and Gregg Williams....all good coordinators who were sub par or mediocre head coaches--and that is just from memory.  Not to say the Evero won't be a great head coach, but we don't know Canales won't be one.