Training Camp for 7/29/2024

[strato]

fug that. That is a malicious definition, it completely disrespects actual legit great throws. We need some reform. 

not that a 20 yard throw can’t be great. It’s isn’t a great 30 yard, or 40 yard throw though. 

Edited July 30 by strato

[dxpanther]

i want to see 40+ yd throws too but i wonder if the 2.7 rule is keeping that from happening

[strato]

Yeah I bet it would be hard to see that from our team in under 2.7. 

 

[ForJimmy]

9 minutes ago, strato said:

fug that. That is a malicious definition, it completely disrespects actual legit great throws. We need some reform. 

not that a 20 yard throw can’t be great. It’s isn’t a great 30 yard, or 40 yard throw though. 

The great QBs are averaging in the 8s for YPA.  Mahomes' career average is 7.9 and that is in Andy Reid's wide open offense.  These averages are also including YAC.  So throwing a pass that is triple (yeah I am being vague here) your average is considered deep, double is considered medium (remember these are without YAC past the LOS).  It just is what it is man.  As @Bear Handsstated, Bryce still wasn't good at it last year, so anyone using it to hate on him can continue to do so.  It's just hard to change the definition on something that already has one....

[PNW_PantherMan]

19 minutes ago, strato said:

fug that. That is a malicious definition, it completely disrespects actual legit great throws. We need some reform. 

not that a 20 yard throw can’t be great. It’s isn’t a great 30 yard, or 40 yard throw though. 

I realize you gotta draw the line somewhere, but yeah.  The context is really everything.  Imagining a QB lob a TD from the 20 yard line does not scream deep ball.  It's borderline but it's really more of a longer intermediate throw as far as pass pattern and play design.

[strato]

1 hour ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I realize you gotta draw the line somewhere, but yeah.  The context is really everything.  Imagining a QB lob a TD from the 20 yard line does not scream deep ball.  It's borderline but it's really more of a longer intermediate throw as far as pass pattern and play design.

I guess my point is, where the hell is medium? Did they just do away with it? There should not be some binary system that doesn’t allow for a finer categorization than over or under 20 yards. 

Edited July 30 by strato

[MasterAwesome]

2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah throwing the ball 20 plus yards accurately against NFL defenses is no easy task.  That's my biggest take.  People on here scoffing at 20 plus yard passes.  I mean after the 25 yard touchback, one of those gets you at midfield and another is close to the redzone.  It's was definitely a weakness for Bryce last year, even looking at the 20 plus yard range.  

I do think that this falls on the WR as much at the QB though.  The 5 top ones you mentioned had a nice WR core and a nice offensive scheme to use them effectively.  Notice how the two biggest arms (Allen and Mahomes) were not in the top group you mentioned.  Big arm doesn't always equate to deep passes as much as people think.  You have to hit a spot on the field at the right time and have a WR capable of beating his guy, and going out and getting the ball.  I think our staff knows this and wanted XL and Sanders (TE) to help address a previous offensive weakness.  They may take a minute to get comfortable but I think they were drafted to help with this.  Whether it is Bryce or another QB we replace him with we want to have some "deep ball catchers" on this offense.

Not only was Mahomes not in the top group, he was apparently one of the worst deep passers in the league last year.  Yet he won the Super Bowl...hmm....

[Bear Hands]

2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

The great QBs are averaging in the 8s for YPA.  Mahomes' career average is 7.9 and that is in Andy Reid's wide open offense.  These averages are also including YAC.  So throwing a pass that is triple (yeah I am being vague here) your average is considered deep, double is considered medium (remember these are without YAC past the LOS).  It just is what it is man.  As @Bear Handsstated, Bryce still wasn't good at it last year, so anyone using it to hate on him can continue to do so.  It's just hard to change the definition on something that already has one....

Yup.

And in the modern NFL, there's an interesting trend of a higher depth of target but less overall deep balls.  Modern QBs need to be versatile and have the ability to make every throw.  Definitions aside, as MasterAwesome points out, Mahomes short and intermediate is on point.  It's about making any spot of the field dangerous.  

 

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Not only was Mahomes not in the top group, he was apparently one of the worst deep passers in the league last year.  Yet he won the Super Bowl...hmm....

Nice find!  He also was working with a subpar WR group.  I really think the "deep ball" pass is more on the WR/Scheme these days.  Most QBs can lob it up a decent amount of yards to a spot.  The ones that lead in the deep ball stat have the WRs to go get it and the schemes to get them open for it.

[MasterAwesome]

24 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Nice find!  He also was working with a subpar WR group.  I really think the "deep ball" pass is more on the WR/Scheme these days.  Most QBs can lob it up a decent amount of yards to a spot.  The ones that lead in the deep ball stat have the WRs to go get it and the schemes to get them open for it.

Yeah I agree 100% about WR/Scheme.  I just find it ironic that the people who fail to recognize that, are the ones who would see a passing chart like that and unknowingly think it belongs to a JAG game manager ("game manager" in a pejorative sense) and not the reigning Super Bowl champion/potential greatest QB of all time in his prime. 

It feels like some people just have a personal intuitive belief or desire of how the game is/should be played and it sometimes contradicts reality.  How many times do we hear that the run game is antiquated and that this is an offense-driven league?  Yet...3 of the top 4 teams last year had Top 5 rushing attacks.  3 of the top 4 teams also had Top 5 defenses...including, again, the reigning Super Bowl champs who were essentially carried all season by that defense.  Yet people still want to believe that the Chiefs success last year was on the back of Mahomes.  Yes, Mahomes is incredible and an elite QB is always obviously a huge asset to have.  But the Mahomes last year felt a lot more like the "just 1 of 11" type QB that Canales has been preaching that is part of the formula, performing within his role and distributing the pass efficiently rather than playing Superman and carrying the team.

[Bear Hands]

11 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Yeah I agree 100% about WR/Scheme.  I just find it ironic that the people who fail to recognize that, are the ones who would see a passing chart like that and unknowingly think it belongs to a JAG game manager ("game manager" in a pejorative sense) and not the reigning Super Bowl champion/potential greatest QB of all time in his prime. 

It feels like some people just have a personal intuitive belief or desire of how the game is/should be played and it sometimes contradicts reality.  How many times do we hear that the run game is antiquated and that this is an offense-driven league?  Yet...3 of the top 4 teams last year had Top 5 rushing attacks.  3 of the top 4 teams also had Top 5 defenses...including, again, the reigning Super Bowl champs who were essentially carried all season by that defense.  Yet people still want to believe that the Chiefs success last year was on the back of Mahomes.  Yes, Mahomes is incredible and an elite QB is always obviously a huge asset to have.  But the Mahomes last year felt a lot more like the "just 1 of 11" type QB that Canales has been preaching that is part of the formula, performing within his role and distributing the pass efficiently rather than playing Superman and carrying the team.

Nice post.

McDuffie and Jones were major reasons for the SB too. That defense was excellent- Their defense never allowed them to let a game slip beyond their grasp. Even when behind, kept the win attainable. Then you have a guy like Mahomes that can make the 7-10 point comeback in a flash, you’ve got the recipe for success. 

 

[strato]

As the long game relates to us, we need to make people defend it, as has been said. 

Chiefs: No one had an answer for Kelce for a couple years running. 

People could not defend him. Short medium long. 

 

 

Edited July 30 by strato