Another Bryce breakdown

[Jon Snow]

38 minutes ago, CRA said:

sometimes you got to find ways to win with a Jake, Steve or Kerry. 

Exactly,  there's only so many "elite" qbs in the league at any one time. It's usually 4 or 5 at most. Sometimes less.

[pantherclaw]

55 minutes ago, CRA said:

you don't always need a generational QB.  But you better go find some generational types at some position(s). 

End of the day our roster is just Derrick Brown at the moment.  We got a lot of work to do before we can actually be competitive.  Everyone else is potential and hope. 

Good/great players definitely help any team compete at a high level. 

[CRA]

2 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Good/great players definitely help any team compete at a high level. 

we won with Jake because we had generational talent on both sides of the ball in addition to top of the position type studs. 

I mean, we can win with a Bryce Young that doesn't turn out to actually be great....but you then need a roster full of great players.  We are a LONG way from that. 

[pantherclaw]

23 minutes ago, CRA said:

we won with Jake because we had generational talent on both sides of the ball in addition to top of the position type studs. 

I mean, we can win with a Bryce Young that doesn't turn out to actually be great....but you then need a roster full of great players.  We are a LONG way from that. 

Losing Cam and Luke plus our lines not being well stocked at the time hurt. 

Talent gathering is always easier said than done. 

[CRA]

16 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Losing Cam and Luke plus our lines not being well stocked at the time hurt. 

Talent gathering is always easier said than done. 

no doubt, same time we also lost Greg and TD with those 2 entering the Tepper era too.  A LOT of big time leadership gone and never replaced.  We just sort of say, well, DJ Moore is good so he is now a leader.  But in reality, this team has lacked more than just good coaches to lead us.  We haven't had the players to lead the team out of this.   Just being talented doesn't make you  the type leader a NFL lockeroom needs. 

[WhoKnows]

5 hours ago, rayzor said:

the problem is if we're waiting for Cam v2, we're going to be waiting decades longer. 

our best hope is that bryce is better than we all think he is and that canales is able to work some serious magic with him and the scheme to help him live up anywhere close to the potential we thought he had.

he's a smart kid. we just have to be able to have a situation that allows him to use his smarts. 

the truth with cam was that een he had to have a system tailored for his skillset coming into the league. the difference between him and luck (which was the debate in '09 when we thought luck was an option) was that with luck, he could be placed in any offense and it would work...hence the higher floor he had  than cam. cam, though, needed an offense that was built around him to reach his potential. he could have done alright in a more pro-style offense, but to reach his ceiling (which was seen by a lot of people as being higher than luck).

i don't think having to have an offense tailored around what you can and can't do well is a problem for people who can develop around them...after they've truly identified what those can and can't items are.

we didn't have that last year. i think we have that this year.

we want a guy who can carry a team on his back, but those kind of guys are very rare. we don't need to spend our time trying  find that guy, because even when you have them there's no guarantee that they will be enough. 

championships are won, quite often, by teams who learn to compensate for less than the greatest QB play. you have a great defense and can protect the ball while wearing out the other defense and you've got a chance. 

we don't need Bryce to be superman (despite where we drafted him and what we paid to get him). we just need him to be able to run (manage) a good offense. 

I agree with the post above that you need great QB play to realistically have a chance. We got our choice of the 1st pick in a decent QB draft and screwed up. Sure, best case is Young has a miracle upgrade, but it looks to me like that’s not going to happen.

I liken this to Alex Smith and the Chiefs still knowing they needed Mahomes, except that I’d much rather have a 2nd year Smith than Young. Young might be able to get us into a playoff game but he will never win a Super Bowl. We had an MVP Cam and still lost the big game.

[strato]

I can’t see Bryce Young getting to the Super Bowl unless he is a backup. You aren’t talking about beating most teams, having a nice season. It’s beating everybody just to get there. For his sake I hope I am wrong. 

[WhoKnows]

4 hours ago, pantherclaw said:

Cam was a generational QB. One that didn't even see his full potential. 

Now you're claiming we won't be good until get another generational QB. 

Incredibly flawed thinking. 

SMH. Cam v2 means a QB who can get you to a Super Bowl. It’s not really that hard. In one post you say how hard it is to replace Cam, Luke and our OL from the SB team and now you are saying it’s flawed thinking that we need a top QB to be good again? Do you ever notice how hypocritical you can be?

Young isn’t talented enough IMHO to win us a SB. That’s the goal, right? We can sit around and hope we get to be the amazing teams around the Johnson and Dilfers of the world or we can get a great QB. We had a chance just last draft and we made a huge mistake. We had another chance this year if we had done the first trade offer for Burns and used those picks and kept our 2024 1st, but again we fuged it up.

Flawed thinking is thinking that limping along with Young hoping he improves enough that if we draft perfectly around him that we can win in spite of him. That’s virtually impossible. The draft history of QBs that have been good enough to make/compete for a SB is a lot longer than the handful of game managers with amazing teams around them.

Also, Cam is not a generational QB. Matt Ryan did the exact same thing (making an and losing a SB) and he’s not generational. Josh Allen and Burrow aren’t generational. We don’t need a generational QB like Brady or Mahomes although it would be nice. We just need a Stroud who we just need a few pieces around and some luck.

Edited June 7 by WhoKnows

[outlaw4]

3 hours ago, Jon Snow said:

Exactly,  there's only so many "elite" qbs in the league at any one time. It's usually 4 or 5 at most. Sometimes less.

How many elite QBs do we have right now in the league? And how elite are they, really?

Mahomes - I seriously doubt anyone would say otherwise. My only counterpoint is that since Tyreek left, he has not been as explosive. Only one with a ring.

Allen - Yes. His first year was rough, however, and even now, he's a turnover machine which has cost his team games. Wouldn't surprise me if he regresses as talent around him goes elsewhere.

Burrow - Can say he got to a Super Bowl but injuries may be a concern. All those sacks he took may be coming back to bite the Bengals.

Jackson/Prescott - Can't win in the playoffs even with rosters around them, so no.

So there you go. At least in my eyes, there's only maybe 3 right now. And over the past 10 years, QBs not Mahomes/Brady that have won were (noodle arm) Manning, Nick Foles and Matthew Stafford. Even Stafford I'd argue was a one-shot because the Rams absolutely went all-in with talent. 

[Jon Snow]

39 minutes ago, outlaw4 said:

How many elite QBs do we have right now in the league? And how elite are they, really?

Mahomes - I seriously doubt anyone would say otherwise. My only counterpoint is that since Tyreek left, he has not been as explosive. Only one with a ring.

Allen - Yes. His first year was rough, however, and even now, he's a turnover machine which has cost his team games. Wouldn't surprise me if he regresses as talent around him goes elsewhere.

Burrow - Can say he got to a Super Bowl but injuries may be a concern. All those sacks he took may be coming back to bite the Bengals.

Jackson/Prescott - Can't win in the playoffs even with rosters around them, so no.

So there you go. At least in my eyes, there's only maybe 3 right now. And over the past 10 years, QBs not Mahomes/Brady that have won were (noodle arm) Manning, Nick Foles and Matthew Stafford. Even Stafford I'd argue was a one-shot because the Rams absolutely went all-in with talent. 

I wouldn't count Prescott. He's has never been elite in my eyes.  This list is very short. 

[CPF4LIFE]

Generational is a term i would use for very few...because i think winning is a big part of that. Game changing franchise player is a term that definitely applies to Cam and others.

[Navy_football]

The Huddle...

No QB has ever taken a bad team to the Super Bowl. It doesn't work that way. 

Very few can even go .500 with a bad supporting cast like tge 2023 Panthers. QB is the most dependent position on the field. Prime Cam and maybe Lamar Jackson (the running one, not the one in the AFC championship last year) are the only recent QBs that could have gone above  .500 with last year's roster.

And if all you needed was a good QB then Drew Brees would have won 6 or 7 Lombardis. He was that guy. 

[pantherclaw]

3 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

SMH. Cam v2 means a QB who can get you to a Super Bowl. It’s not really that hard. In one post you say how hard it is to replace Cam, Luke and our OL from the SB team and now you are saying it’s flawed thinking that we need a top QB to be good again? Do you ever notice how hypocritical you can be?

Young isn’t talented enough IMHO to win us a SB. That’s the goal, right? We can sit around and hope we get to be the amazing teams around the Johnson and Dilfers of the world or we can get a great QB. We had a chance just last draft and we made a huge mistake. We had another chance this year if we had done the first trade offer for Burns and used those picks and kept our 2024 1st, but again we fuged it up.

Flawed thinking is thinking that limping along with Young hoping he improves enough that if we draft perfectly around him that we can win in spite of him. That’s virtually impossible. The draft history of QBs that have been good enough to make/compete for a SB is a lot longer than the handful of game managers with amazing teams around them.

Also, Cam is not a generational QB. Matt Ryan did the exact same thing (making an and losing a SB) and he’s not generational. Josh Allen and Burrow aren’t generational. We don’t need a generational QB like Brady or Mahomes although it would be nice. We just need a Stroud who we just need a few pieces around and some luck.

Stopped reading when I realized you didn't even read the post you quoted.  

Why the fug even bother to respond if you Don't understand what was said in the first place. 

[WhoKnows]

2 hours ago, pantherclaw said:

Stopped reading when I realized you didn't even read the post you quoted.  

Why the fug even bother to respond if you Don't understand what was said in the first place. 

Lol. You called my saying that we need a generational (your words, not mine) before we will be good again was flawed thinking. Gee, that was so hard to understand. It’s always funny when people can’t respond when given a valid response that goes against what they said.

To be 100% clear and simple for you to get, I absolutely believe that we won’t be good again until we have Cam v2 and by that I don’t mean “generational.” I mean a franchise level QB like Stroud looks or like Stafford with the Rams or Burrow or Allen or Ryan/Cam in their SB years. Does that make sense? Care to actually respond? If my thinking is flawed, when do you think we will be good or are your thinking this 2024 team will be competing for SBs?