Does anyone actually think Bryce will actually be good?

[strato]

forgot to quote: 

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are there joint practices this preseason?  When do they announce that?

 

edit- the jets practice was announced may 27 last year so I guess we will hear something soon

Edited 13 minutes ago by mrcompletely11

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Whenever it happens. I wasn’t trying to reference anything specific. Just that at some point that is gonna happen. 

Edited May 22 by strato

[CRA]

16 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I'm not sure I 100% agree aside from he needs a lot of shotgun to get comfortable, but he is going to have to be able to line up under center as well.  Whether we use roll outs or deeper drops to adjust this for him is anyone's guess at this point.  

I kind of like that they are building an offensive roster that will fit 90% of QBs instead of going all in on creating a unique offense for a QB that we aren't 100% sold on at this point.  If we did create a special Bryce offense and he doesn't become the QB he was projected, we would be stuck with an unusual set of players on offense for a more traditional QB.  The route they are taking makes it easier to move on from Bryce if needed.  

Bryce is a unicorn.  So he isn't the 90% of QBs.  I guess that remains my central point.  I'm not even saying we should at this point.  I'm just saying that largely made drafting him #1 overall, pointless.  We drafted a unique QB we never attempted to cater and build around.  That's an org creating things that don't work and fit.... and aren't going to work. 

So it's hard to get on board with Bryce....when the org was never committed to it working. 

[CRA]

28 minutes ago, strato said:

On that, we haven’t seen anything yet that is absolute hard and fast. We have talk about 1 of 11, running the ball. Which does indicate a traditional approach. But they have to pass the ball and I would think you have to do something creative there and they know it. 

Or, maybe they want a square peg and are going to see if he can be that square peg and if not they are already to the point of if it doesn’t work then we’re getting a better fit to run it.

well, we know what every offense Canales has been involved with has looked like in the pass game.....and we know what his first big investment was (XL) 100% matches up with that. 

Generally, the safe assumption in the NFL, is guys will keep being what they have proven to be.  So I expect the O to be reliant on the deep chunk pass plays paired up with a stubborn run. 

I frankly like a lot about Bryce.  I like a lot about Canales.   I don't love them paired up. 

[strato]

I can’t see expecting that kid to run a pro style play action work from the pocket offense, unless you just want to definitively prove he can’t excel in that environment. 

[ForJimmy]

16 minutes ago, CRA said:

Bryce is a unicorn.  So he isn't the 90% of QBs.  I guess that remains my central point.  I'm not even saying we should at this point.  I'm just saying that largely made drafting him #1 overall, pointless.  We drafted a unique QB we never attempted to cater and build around.  That's an org creating things that don't work and fit.... and aren't going to work. 

So it's hard to get on board with Bryce....when the org was never committed to it working. 

I guess to me if he was never able to handle SOME basic NFL formations we was never going to have a long term career as a starter.  I think we traded for Johnson who is one of the better route runners and is great at separation,  AT finds soft spots and has some chemistry.  XL and JT Sanders seem to excel at adjusting to deep passes which Young having issues there it could actually help him.  Throw in the two big OGs which shows they are investing in the interior of the OL which is crucial for a short QB, I'd argue they are not completely ignore Bryce here.  To me it looks like an offense he should be able to play in and if not they will find someone who can.  

[rayzor]

48 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

thats a win for all of us, a little hope would go a long way

just seeing bryce in the middle of the pack would be a huge win as well. yeah...not what we'd want for a top pick overall, but it's kind of reasonable for any rookie in his second year. but for him coming off of that year last year and considering we're going to be leaning so heavily on the run i think that's probably a fair expectation for him.

[PootieNunu]

47 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I'm not sure I 100% agree aside from he needs a lot of shotgun to get comfortable, but he is going to have to be able to line up under center as well.  Whether we use roll outs or deeper drops to adjust this for him is anyone's guess at this point.  

I kind of like that they are building an offensive roster that will fit 90% of QBs instead of going all in on creating a unique offense for a QB that we aren't 100% sold on at this point.  If we did create a special Bryce offense and he doesn't become the QB he was projected, we would be stuck with an unusual set of players on offense for a more traditional QB.  The route they are taking makes it easier to move on from Bryce if needed.  

Deeper drops from under center are not really an option, he is going to get sacked into oblivion. Then you guys will start blaming the OL.

All this should have been known when drafting the dude, but Tepper is a fuging moron.

He has to play the majority of his snaps in pistol/shotgun and there are times even in those formations where he cant see the field. 

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I guess to me if he was never able to handle SOME basic NFL formations we was never going to have a long term career as a starter.  I think we traded for Johnson who is one of the better route runners and is great at separation,  AT finds soft spots and has some chemistry.  XL and JT Sanders seem to excel at adjusting to deep passes which Young having issues there it could actually help him.  Throw in the two big OGs which shows they are investing in the interior of the OL which is crucial for a short QB, I'd argue they are not completely ignore Bryce here.  To me it looks like an offense he should be able to play in and if not they will find someone who can.  

take a Cam Newton, he came into the NFL and basically we built a Cam-centric O around him.  Doesn't mean he would never sniff some "traditional play".   He did.   Exceptions are that.  And the minority.   It would be like giving Cam Newton as a rookie prime Wes Welker and saying Cam should be able to work with that in some quick hitter scheme ripping of Tom Brady. That's a bad marriage from the jump if that's what the coach asks.  That wasn't what Cam was going to be able to do coming in. 

IMO, Bryce was always going to need that.  Which for Bryce was going to be living in the gun in a creative quick pass O.....with strong rec RB, slot WR, and TE play.  Sure you need outside guys to keep stuff honest.   But he has never a proven puzzle piece of that going into a season to help develop him.  Got some rookies this year.  And rookies are always a crap shoot. 

I mean, I'm just exactly at the same place I was this time last year.  Bryce and the Panthers don't seem to be a great fit.   And I think that is largely the fault of the team that drafted him. 

 

[PootieNunu]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

take a Cam Newton, he came into the NFL and basically we built a Cam-centric O around him.  Doesn't mean he would never sniff some "traditional play".   He did.   Exceptions are that.  And the minority.   It would be like giving Cam Newton as a rookie prime Wes Welker and saying Cam should be able to work with that in some quick hitter scheme ripping of Tom Brady. That's a bad marriage from the jump if that's what the coach asks.  That wasn't what Cam was going to be able to do coming in. 

IMO, Bryce was always going to need that.  Which for Bryce was going to be living in the gun in a creative quick pass O.....with strong rec RB, slot WR, and TE play.  Sure you need outside guys to keep stuff honest.    

I mean, I'm just exactly at the same place I was this time last year.  Bryce and the Panthers don't seem to be a great fit.   And I think that is largely the fault of the team that drafted him. 

 

What team would he be a good fit for? There are only so miami dolphins rosters to go around. 

Not like we can go out and grab Tyreek Hill, CMC, and Travis Kelce to make Bryce look like an average QB. He has to work with what we have and the majority of this is on Tepper for thinking a 5'9" 185 pound guy was going to come in and take the league by storm. 

[ForJimmy]

6 minutes ago, CRA said:

take a Cam Newton, he came into the NFL and basically we built a Cam-centric O around him.  Doesn't mean he would never sniff some "traditional play".   He did.   Exceptions are that.  And the minority.   It would be like giving Cam Newton as a rookie prime Wes Welker and saying Cam should be able to work with that in some quick hitter scheme ripping of Tom Brady. That's a bad marriage from the jump if that's what the coach asks.  That wasn't what Cam was going to be able to do coming in. 

IMO, Bryce was always going to need that.  Which for Bryce was going to be living in the gun in a creative quick pass O.....with strong rec RB, slot WR, and TE play.  Sure you need outside guys to keep stuff honest.   But he has never a proven puzzle piece of that going into a season to help develop him.  Got some rookies this year.  And rookies are always a crap shoot. 

I mean, I'm just exactly at the same place I was this time last year.  Bryce and the Panthers don't seem to be a great fit.   And I think that is largely the fault of the team that drafted him. 

 

I'm saying we should have enough pieces that fit that to get a good measurement of if he can work.  Johnson is the shifty route runner.  I get he doesn't play slot but in DC's offense the WRs are kind of interchangeable at different positions.  We drafted Brooks who is the RB who can also catch out of the backfield, we also draft a TE who is known to be a great pass catcher.  The there elements you wanted in a Bryce offense are here.  XL is (hopefully) going to keep the defense honest, plus should be great at slants (which Bryce was solid at in college) and getting YAC.  AT will work another year at the slot because he is still sneaky enough to find soft spots in the zone you Young to find him like last year.  

It's kind of the best of both worlds IMO.  Less excuses should be made for Bryce with the 3 elements you mentioned addressed enough for him to operate, and we also have the pieces for a more traditional offense if Young doesn't work out.  It shouldn't be a full strip down rebuild if we draft another QB. 

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

What team would he be a good fit for? There are only so miami dolphins rosters to go around. 

Not like we can go out and grab Tyreek Hill, CMC, and Travis Kelce to make Bryce look like an average QB. He has to work with what we have and the majority of this is on Tepper for thinking a 5'9" 185 pound guy was going to come in and take the league by storm. 

again, a creative quick pass O.  That prioritizes the weapons that excel in it.   No argument exists that you need the best positional players in the game to make that work. 

No argument is made he needs prime D. Adams.  Hell, Bryce probably would benefit more from Hunter Renfrow.   But you need the scheme/play calling.  

Rookie Bryce was given a predictable play-caller that doesn't run a scheme that fits Bryce, a slow slot WR, an early down RB, and whack TE play.   I said before the start of last season he was being setup to fail.  The league was going to sit on our pass game.  We didn't have the weapons for him to dish out to.  No one liked that then.  No one likes it now.   But it's the same thoughts and reasoning. 

 

 

[CRA]

14 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I'm saying we should have enough pieces that fit that to get a good measurement of if he can work.  Johnson is the shifty route runner.  I get he doesn't play slot but in DC's offense the WRs are kind of interchangeable at different positions.  We drafted Brooks who is the RB who can also catch out of the backfield, we also draft a TE who is known to be a great pass catcher.  The there elements you wanted in a Bryce offense are here.  XL is (hopefully) going to keep the defense honest, plus should be great at slants (which Bryce was solid at in college) and getting YAC.  AT will work another year at the slot because he is still sneaky enough to find soft spots in the zone you Young to find him like last year.  

It's kind of the best of both worlds IMO.  Less excuses should be made for Bryce with the 3 elements you mentioned addressed enough for him to operate, and we also have the pieces for a more traditional offense if Young doesn't work out.  It shouldn't be a full strip down rebuild if we draft another QB. 

just go with the assumption for a minute Bryce Young is naturally a small ball QB....because that's where I am

We have a chunk pass play O that isn't actually inventive (based on what we know/seen of Canales).  

In terms of the pass game weapons that Bryce naturally would lean to....we have a painfully slow slot WR.  We should open the season with an early down runner a RB.  Weak TE play.   So just like last year, those big 3 positions for a small ball QB remain weak. 

Now we do have Johnson on the outside who is an improvement over Chark.  But if I am an opposing D I'm sitting on that slant and cross route all game every game until Bryce/Johnson can consistently beat me elsewhere.   Teams sat on the pass game because Bryce couldn't prove to do anything else that was costly.  And he is a bit of a wildcard too.  I mean, that's why he is here.  XL IMO, I put to the side for a minute in terms of opening up the year and being a big aid to Bryce. 

That doesn't seem like a good setup to see if Bryce really has it.  Seems just like another bad fit/design for Bryce (if you believe he is suited for the quick pass, which I do)

[PootieNunu]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

again, a creative quick pass O.  That prioritizes the weapons that excel in it.   No argument exists that you need the best positional players in the game to make that work. 

No argument is made he needs prime D. Adams.  Hell, Bryce probably would benefit more from Hunter Renfrow.   But you need the scheme/play calling.  

Rookie Bryce was given a predictable play-caller that doesn't run a scheme that fits Bryce, a slow slot WR, an early down RB, and whack TE play.   I said before the start of last season he was being setup to fail.  The league was going to sit on our pass game.  We didn't have the weapons for him to dish out to.  No one liked that then.  No one likes it now.   But it's the same thoughts and reasoning. 

 

 

Do you think all of our WRs should have the same skillset? 

We got Johnson who is supposed to be the shifty WR and probably has more upside than Renfrow. 

We also have Thielen who is basically an old Renfrow. 

Do we need more Renfrows on the roster? I dont really get the love for the dude, he has one season over 1k yards with 9 TDs and a bunch of meh seasons. Dude hasnt topped 400 yards in 2 seasons. 

 

[ForJimmy]

5 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

Do you think all of our WRs should have the same skillset? 

We got Johnson who is supposed to be the shifty WR and probably has more upside than Renfrow. 

We also have Thielen who is basically an old Renfrow. 

Do we need more Renfrows on the roster? I dont really get the love for the dude, he has one season over 1k yards with 9 TDs and a bunch of meh seasons. Dude hasnt topped 400 yards in 2 seasons. 

 

You run that offense and no defense has to worry about the deep ball. It has to be a complete offense with elements he is comfortable with. JT and XL are capable of catching deep passes. Throw in some play action deep shots to them to prevent the defense from stacking the box and making it very crowded for a bunch of shifty route runners.