Canales on fixing Bryce's footwork

[mrcompletely11]

10 minutes ago, RumHam said:

he threw off of his back feet when he wasn't throwing the ball into the dirt in front of him. Hopefully having better blocking will help, but dude rarely would step up in the pocket, step into his throws, and they were afraid to have him roll out probably due to protecting the investment.

To me the hopping is the biggest hindrance.   You cannot waste time in the pocket by bouncing around trying to see the play and then correctly get your feet set and follow through on the throw.

[SmokinwithWilly]

1 hour ago, MechaZain said:

We're talking about defenses crowding the box last year though. Could be because they don't think Bryce can throw it, or they saw our origami offensive line, or they knew our bozo coaches weren't calling deep balls, or maybe the league isn't afraid of DJ Chark. We don't know how much each part played into it. It could be any or all of it.

I admit I checked out as the season went on so I could have just missed them, but I don't remember many plays falling apart because Bryce underthrew. We're mostly going off the fact that we avoided going deep but I have a hard time running with the narrative that they were working around Bryce's arm when everything that staff did was inept and nonsensical. 

Here's my thing. If you're playing safety and have Bryce passing, you know you can cheat a little towards the line because you have time to catch up. Bryce isn't throwing missles like Cam did. He doesnt have that type of arm. Depending on where he is, you can rule out parts of the field because he's not making a 40 yard pass cross field with serious velocity. An extra half to full second is long time for an NFL level defender to recover. Guys like Josh Allen can flick their wrist of their back foot and toss it 50 yards on a rope. Bryce can't. Defenses know that stuff and can adjust accordingly. That's just basic NFL game planning. 

[LinvilleGorge]

14 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

To me the hopping is the biggest hindrance.   You cannot waste time in the pocket by bouncing around trying to see the play and then correctly get your feet set and follow through on the throw.

He doesn't bring his feet and hips with him. When he's in the pocket he's bouncing around like the Energizer bunny then when he sees where he wants to go with it he's not ready to throw. Now he has to try to get his hips in alignment and feet set and now the opportunity is passed. 

[rayzor]

4 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

He doesn't bring his feet and hips with him. When he's in the pocket he's bouncing around like the Energizer bunny then when he sees where he wants to go with it he's not ready to throw. Now he has to try to get his hips in alignment and feet set and now the opportunity is passed. 

this is something that should have been addressed last year and maybe would have if the coaching staff wasn't more involved in whatever pissing match they had going on with each other. 

listening to canales, it just seems like he has so much more knowledge about what can and needs to be done with any QB than we got from any of our "dream team coaching staff" from last year. 

[LinvilleGorge]

9 minutes ago, rayzor said:

this is something that should have been addressed last year and maybe would have if the coaching staff wasn't more involved in whatever pissing match they had going on with each other. 

listening to canales, it just seems like he has so much more knowledge about what can and needs to be done with any QB than we got from any of our "dream team coaching staff" from last year. 

I wish I knew how that whole thing played out. From the outside looking in with the advantage of hindsight it really feels like a lot of the staff either didn't want Bryce to begin with or they got him into camp and panicked when they found out just how physically limited he was playing against NFL defensive talent.

I'd also like to know how it went with Canales. Did he put on the full pitch of how he can fix Bryce and massage the Legos in the room or did he say something lore along the lines of "Look... we're gonna bust our asses cleaning up Bryce's technical issues and put a system in place to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses but I can't guarantee you he's going to prove to be the answer at QB long-term." If it was the former we might watch Tepper rage fire another staff.

[LinvilleGorge]

24 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Here's my thing. If you're playing safety and have Bryce passing, you know you can cheat a little towards the line because you have time to catch up. Bryce isn't throwing missles like Cam did. He doesnt have that type of arm. Depending on where he is, you can rule out parts of the field because he's not making a 40 yard pass cross field with serious velocity. An extra half to full second is long time for an NFL level defender to recover. Guys like Josh Allen can flick their wrist of their back foot and toss it 50 yards on a rope. Bryce can't. Defenses know that stuff and can adjust accordingly. That's just basic NFL game planning. 

This is the stuff that can't be fixed. We've seen Bryce's physical limitations. It's a LOT to scheme around. You're not worried about the deep outs. You're really not worried about the deep third at all. You're basically trying to lick down the flats and the short to medium area of the middle of the field. The entire field becomes the red zone and red zone offense is a lot harder for a reason. There's simply less field to cover. A QB with a limited arm just gives the defense less field to cover and makes everything about offense harder. There's a reason why coaches drool over arm talent. 

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I wish I knew how that whole thing played out. From the outside looking in with the advantage of hindsight it really feels like a lot of the staff either didn't want Bryce to begin with or they got him into camp and panicked when they found out just how physically limited he was playing against NFL defensive talent.

I'd also like to know how it went with Canales. Did he put on the full pitch of how he can fix Bryce and massage the Legos in the room or did he say something lore along the lines of "Look... we're gonna bust our asses cleaning up Bryce's technical issues and put a system in place to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses but I can't guarantee you he's going to prove to be the answer at QB long-term." If it was the former we might watch Tepper rage fire another staff.

yeah, there was clearly some smoke there form the jump........wish we knew the inner workings. 

I mean, it was what week 3 and Frank was channeling Matt Rhule.....claiming the reason Dalton went in for Bryce on 4th and 1.....was old man Andy Dalton presents a unique threat that would leave a defense on it's heels......WUT!?! 

[LinvilleGorge]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

yeah, there was clearly some smoke there form the jump........wish we knew the inner workings. 

I mean, it was what week 3 and Frank was channeling Matt Rhule.....claiming the reason Dalton went in for Bryce on 4th and 1.....was old man Andy Dalton presents a unique threat that would leave a defense on it's heels......WUT!?! 

That was an amazing moment of candor. Yeah, this over the hill journeyman presents a unique threat that our #1 overall pick doesn't - namely being the size of an NFL QB and then vs. Seattle we also found out that our offense could actually present a vertical threat when our QB displayed the ability to throw a ball more than 20 yards in the air.

[CmC2k]

22 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I wish I knew how that whole thing played out. From the outside looking in with the advantage of hindsight it really feels like a lot of the staff either didn't want Bryce to begin with or they got him into camp and panicked when they found out just how physically limited he was playing against NFL defensive talent.

I think the coming to Jesus moment for last year's staff was in the Jets joint practices when they saw first-hand just how bad the Oline was in this scheme where they couldn't just line up and power run the football like they were doing under Wilks. Getting destroyed like they did probably took every pass concept that was more than 20 yards out of the play book because we simply couldn't hold up in pass pro for that long. 

[rayzor]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

I wish I knew how that whole thing played out. From the outside looking in with the advantage of hindsight it really feels like a lot of the staff either didn't want Bryce to begin with or they got him into camp and panicked when they found out just how physically limited he was playing against NFL defensive talent.

I'd also like to know how it went with Canales. Did he put on the full pitch of how he can fix Bryce and massage the Legos in the room or did he say something lore along the lines of "Look... we're gonna bust our asses cleaning up Bryce's technical issues and put a system in place to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses but I can't guarantee you he's going to prove to be the answer at QB long-term." If it was the former we might watch Tepper rage fire another staff.

i think the coaching staff was oblivious to everything. they got caught up in this idea that Bryce was a "ready to go in all regards on day one" type QB. They had unrealistic expectations, thinking that he would be able to manage everything from the field. they saw him as a rookie with a vet's mind and did nothing to help develop, largely because they were so focused on the ideal of him than the reality of him. 

i still believe that he can be a really good QB...maybe even elite some day. but that potential is/was there for baker, darnold, and so many other failed really early picks. teams (and fans) had unrealistic expectations for what they believed an early pick QB could or should be and they were set up for failure. it's not that they weren't capable of succeeding, they were put into crappy situations where they couldn't get the developmental coaching they needed and should have been given.

you work around what you actually have, not what you think you have or should have gotten. you are drafting a kid who has a lot of growing to do in all regards. you draft based on potential and then you focus all your energy into helping him grow into that potential. 

no QB entering the league should be expected to be ready day 1 without a poo ton of work put in ahead of time and even then there should be given an allowance for unforeseen issues that need to be addressed and everything you do in building an offense around a QB you plan to have leading your franchise should make the transition to the pro game easier for him by having an uncomplicated offense, solid run game to rely heavily on, and an OL to protect him.

To expect any QB to jump in and run an offense like an old pro in his first year is just unrealistic.  

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, NCBlu said:

Says who? If they wanted Young they could have traded up to get him.(Like I think Car was hoping they would do) Even before the draft Hou HC said " I don't think Car is taking the QB we want" so why trade up. They got the QB they wanted the OFF rookie of the year. Car tried to get cute to control the draft but was stuck at #1, even the owner said they was think Hou would get #1 and they would take Stroud at #2 so that came out his mouth.. No hindsight never wanted Young based on the tape before the draft. All was proved right with how bad a yr he had. Not saying he can't get better but all the major red flags from his COLLEGE tape showed up last year... 

Hate when ppl act like everyone loved Young till he looked like poo...

especially since they immediately traded up to third.

[Navy_football]

Here we go with the "hot takes" again. True - Bryce doesn't have an elite arm, but he DOES have a good arm. More than adequate for the NFL. Particularly because he can throw from odd angles and doesn't need to set his feet to deliver with accuracy. If he sets his feet and lets the ball rip, it'd have a lot more velocity. But that's not his game. It's not a physical limitation. It's a choice to not throw with high velocity all the time. Which you shouldn't. But I agree, there were times when he should have put more zip on the ball, or more air under the pass. He's a finesse passer. Not a Cam. 

Footwork does need to be cleaned up. But I can't blame the man for wanting to be in a position to bail playing behind that oline, with those receivers, in that scheme. He showed plenty of zip on a number of throws last season. He showed the ability to move defenders with his eyes/body movement and throw with high level anticipation - rookies aren't normally able to do either consistently. He showed that he was very elusive when he did decide to run. Decision making was his biggest issue, but that comes with time and/or good coaching. I mean, he WAS a rookie without much help last year. The plan for this season, is to give him a better supporting cast, so that they're able to determine if he's the guy. Do we think Canales and Morgan decided to replace 3/5 of the oline, and bring in 2 new WRs (possibly another 2 in the draft) because guys were open and Bryce couldn't get them the ball? No. They watched the film and saw a team that put too much pressure on one player - that happened to be a rookie. 

[RumHam]

4 minutes ago, rayzor said:

i think the coaching staff was oblivious to everything. they got caught up in this idea that Bryce was a "ready to go in all regards on day one" type QB. They had unrealistic expectations, thinking that he would be able to manage everything from the field. they saw him as a rookie with a vet's mind and did nothing to help develop, largely because they were so focused on the ideal of him than the reality of him. 

i still believe that he can be a really good QB...maybe even elite some day. but that potential is/was there for baker, darnold, and so many other failed really early picks. teams (and fans) had unrealistic expectations for what they believed an early pick QB could or should be and they were set up for failure. it's not that they weren't capable of succeeding, they were put into crappy situations where they couldn't get the developmental coaching they needed and should have been given.

you work around what you actually have, not what you think you have or should have gotten. you are drafting a kid who has a lot of growing to do in all regards. you draft based on potential and then you focus all your energy into helping him grow into that potential. 

no QB entering the league should be expected to be ready day 1 without a poo ton of work put in ahead of time and even then there should be given an allowance for unforeseen issues that need to be addressed and everything you do in building an offense around a QB you plan to have leading your franchise should make the transition to the pro game easier for him by having an uncomplicated offense, solid run game to rely heavily on, and an OL to protect him.

To expect any QB to jump in and run an offense like an old pro in his first year is just unrealistic.  

well this is also why josh mccown is overrated. i don't even know where his push came from in the media's eyes. dude is a seasoned veteran but was never good.

[RumHam]

Just now, Navy_football said:

Here we go with the "hot takes" again. True - Bryce doesn't have an elite arm, but he DOES have a good arm. More than adequate for the NFL. Particularly because he can throw from odd angles and doesn't need to set his feet to deliver with accuracy. If he sets his feet and lets the ball rip, it'd have a lot more velocity. But that's not his game. It's not a physical limitation. It's a choice to not throw with high velocity all the time. Which you shouldn't. But I agree, there were times when he should have put more zip on the ball, or more air under the pass. He's a finesse passer. Not a Cam. 

Footwork does need to be cleaned up. But I can't blame the man for wanting to be in a position to bail playing behind that oline, with those receivers, in that scheme. He showed plenty of zip on a number of throws last season. He showed the ability to move defenders with his eyes/body movement and throw with high level anticipation - rookies aren't normally able to do either consistently. He showed that he was very elusive when he did decide to run. Decision making was his biggest issue, but that comes with time and/or good coaching. I mean, he WAS a rookie without much help last year. The plan for this season, is to give him a better supporting cast, so that they're able to determine if he's the guy. Do we think Canales and Morgan decided to replace 3/5 of the oline, and bring in 2 new WRs (possibly another 2 in the draft) because guys were open and Bryce couldn't get them the ball? No. They watched the film and saw a team that put too much pressure on one player - that happened to be a rookie. 

Particularly because he can throw from odd angles and doesn't need to set his feet to deliver with accuracy.

 

Well this was proven wrong