Luvu / Burns…. Gross / Peppers Dejavu

[CamWhoaaCam]

9 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

Incase you havent noticed we already have a roster full of nobodies.

Which explains why we have the worst team in football.

 

So we traded away our elite talent CMC/Moore. That got us the worst record in football. So your plan is to keep signing average/below average FA's and depending on the draft to turn our roster full of nobodies around?

 

Say we continue to miss on our draft picks what do we have to fall back on? Those average/below average discount FAs will keep us in that same cycle. Rinse/Repeat

 

If you want change you have to actually start spending some money on elite players. Just because we are rebuilding shouldn't eliminate us from adding elite talent via FA.

 

 

 

[PootieNunu]

4 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Which explains why we have the worst team in football.

 

So we traded away our elite talent CMC/Moore. That got us the worst record in football. So your plan is to keep signing average/below average FA's and depending on the draft to turn our roster full of nobodies around?

 

Say we continue to miss on our draft picks what do we have to fall back on? Those average/below average discount FAs will keep us in that same cycle. Rinse/Repeat

 

If you want change you have to actually start spending some money on elite players. Just because we are rebuilding shouldn't eliminate us from adding elite talent via FA.

 

 

 

What elite talent are you adding from FA? You have a tendency to want to sign every FA that has a recognizable name regardless of the price tag or team fit. 

 

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Which explains why we have the worst team in football.

 

So we traded away our elite talent CMC/Moore. That got us the worst record in football. So your plan is to keep signing average/below average FA's and depending on the draft to turn our roster full of nobodies around?

 

Say we continue to miss on our draft picks what do we have to fall back on? Those average/below average discount FAs will keep us in that same cycle. Rinse/Repeat

 

If you want change you have to actually start spending some money on elite players. Just because we are rebuilding shouldn't eliminate us from adding elite talent via FA.

 

 

 

Spending wildly in free agency on "big names" has a long and generally unsuccessful history in the league.

Drafting well is how you build a team for longevity. It's the most obvious thing about the NFL offseason almost every year.

[Manna]

5 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

I also remember Peppers wanting to play in a 3-4 which Green Bay was running at the time vs our 4-3.

He had a list of teams that were apparently 3-4 teams that he wanted to play for. However after it was all said and done he chose Chicago and they ran a 4-3. 

[ForJimmy]

1 hour ago, Manna said:

He had a list of teams that were apparently 3-4 teams that he wanted to play for. However after it was all said and done he chose Chicago and they ran a 4-3. 

You are right. Green Bay was later in his career. Good call. 

[MHS831]

8 hours ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

2 guys playing for life changing amounts of money. One played like a dawg, one played scared to get hurt. Tells me all I need to know about who I want to prioritize. 

 I think keeping Luvu is important because he does sack the QB and he does have tackles for loss because he is primarily a one-gapping, hole shooting LB. He makes big plays that you notice, whereas Luke did too, but he made many more tackles because he was a multiple gap LB (could read the play quicker than anyone I have seen at the position--including Singletary).  

But let's focus on your analysis of Brian Burns for a moment, and compare him to the greatest Panthers to play his position. 

• Brian Burns posted a career-best 12.5 sacks in 2022, part of a Pro Bowl effort that also saw him set career highs in tackles (63), tackles for loss (17) and QB hits (22).
• Burns now ranks fifth in franchise history with 46.0 career sacks, having played in about half as many games as Julius Peppers, who leads the team with 97. 
• Burns is 25 years old, and he needs just 21.5 sacks to pass Charles Johnson on the all-time Panther sack list to become second on the list of all time leader in sacks by age 27.   Johnson retired at age 32.
•   If Burns remains a Panther, it is likely that he will pass Addison and Rucker to become the Panthers' third all time leader in sacks in 2024.  Burns will be 26 years old when that happens.  He needs 9.5 sacks to pass them.
• Burns averages 0.58 sacks per game for his career.  Peppers averaged 0.63 as a Panther.  The second all-time sack leader, Charles Johnson, averaged 0.47 sacks per game.  
• Here is an interesting stat:  RIGHT NOW he has as many career tackle assists (95) as Charles Johnson (95) and Julius Peppers (91), two guys who got paid.  Burns is 25.  
• Burns has averaged 1.88 solo tackles per game.  Peppers averaged (as a Panther) had 2.25 solo tackles per game.  Charles Johnson averaged 1.59.
• Both Peppers and Charles Johnson got paid at the top end of the market.  While Burns seems to be a notch below Peppers and a notch above Johnson in every category, people on the Huddle want him gone because he is not a "dawg" 

When he made that comment about not being injured, he was simply being honest.  If the Panthers were not going to take care of Burns, he would have to take care of himself.  He was frustrated by the way the Panthers have handled him and by the team's lack of commitment to winning. They turned down 2 firsts which means the Rams would have paid him well.  They did not get a contract done. He started the 2023 season on a tear, if you recall.

Now, your point is, "he is not a dawg," but he is on track to be the team's second most effective player at his position by the time he enters his prime--age 27.  If he remains a Panther for another 4-5 years, I have no doubt that he will pass Peppers statistically. 

Please define "dawg" for me?

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask?q=carolina+panthers+all-time+sacks+leaders

 

Edited March 6 by MHS831

[d-dave]

I love Frankie and want to keep him, but Burns is the bigger priority.  I'm not sure why there is this impasse between the FO and Burns.  We've watched CMC and DJ Moore, two other first round picks mind you, go off with new teams, setting career highs and making the Panthers look like fools.

So now, let's take our very talented edge (thanks @MHS831 for the great stat breakdown), trade him off for pennies on the dollar only to watch him go to a team and make them better.  We used to do a great job of keeping our best players (I know Hurndog made plenty of contract mistakes), but we kept our good core together.

If we trade Burns away, we lose the rest of our pass rush.  Even if we can keep Frankie, who will rush the passer?  Teams will just double Frankie and we can hope DJ Johnson or Amarie Barno suddenly become NFL contributors? Can pick 33 give us 10 sacks as a rookie and a consistent rush?  Will prime FA pass rushers be willing to come to Carolina, a team that used and abused Brian Burns?  The more I look at places like Spotrack, the more I feel like I'd much rather over pay for Burns today than hope and pray some FAs workout.

The Panthers need to get some contracts worked out for Moton, Frankie, DB, and Burns.  Those are core players that we can resign to get our cap in order for this season.  If you don't take care of your core, the rest of the team will suffer, either from lack of talent or poor morale.  Pros can see what we did to Burns, and they will remember.  Which just makes it more expensive for us to sign players.

[csx]

25 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

 I think keeping Luvu is important because he does sack the QB and he does have tackles for loss because he is primarily a one-gapping, hole shooting LB. He makes big plays that you notice, whereas Luke did too, but he made many more tackles because he was a multiple gap LB (could read the play quicker than anyone I have seen at the position--including Singletary).  

But let's focus on your analysis of Brian Burns for a moment, and compare him to the greatest Panthers to play his position. 

• Brian Burns posted a career-best 12.5 sacks in 2022, part of a Pro Bowl effort that also saw him set career highs in tackles (63), tackles for loss (17) and QB hits (22).
• Burns now ranks fifth in franchise history with 46.0 career sacks, having played in about half as many games as Julius Peppers, who leads the team with 97. 
• Burns is 25 years old, and he needs just 21.5 sacks to pass Charles Johnson on the all-time Panther sack list to become second on the list of all time leader in sacks by age 27.   Johnson retired at age 32.
•   If Burns remains a Panther, it is likely that he will pass Addison and Rucker to become the Panthers' third all time leader in sacks in 2024.  Burns will be 26 years old when that happens.  He needs 9.5 sacks to pass them.
• Burns averages 0.58 sacks per game for his career.  Peppers averaged 0.63 as a Panther.  The second all-time sack leader, Charles Johnson, averaged 0.47 sacks per game.  
• Here is an interesting stat:  RIGHT NOW he has as many career tackle assists (95) as Charles Johnson (95) and Julius Peppers (91), two guys who got paid.  Burns is 25.  
• Burns has averaged 1.88 solo tackles per game.  Peppers averaged (as a Panther) had 2.25 solo tackles per game.  Charles Johnson averaged 1.59.
• Both Peppers and Charles Johnson got paid at the top end of the market.  While Burns seems to be a notch below Peppers and a notch above Johnson in every category, people on the Huddle want him gone because he is not a "dawg" 

When he made that comment about not being injured, he was simply being honest.  If the Panthers were not going to take care of Burns, he would have to take care of himself.  He was frustrated by the way the Panthers have handled him and by the team's lack of commitment to winning. They turned down 2 firsts which means the Rams would have paid him well.  They did not get a contract done. He started the 2023 season on a tear, if you recall.

Now, your point is, "he is not a dawg," but he is on track to be the team's second most effective player at his position by the time he enters his prime--age 27.  If he remains a Panther for another 4-5 years, I have no doubt that he will pass Peppers statistically. 

Please define "dawg" for me?

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask?q=carolina+panthers+all-time+sacks+leaders

 

Those other guys played run defense very well.

Yall want to pay a 1 dimensional second tier pass rusher a premier contract why?

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, d-dave said:

I love Frankie and want to keep him, but Burns is the bigger priority.  I'm not sure why there is this impasse between the FO and Burns.  We've watched CMC and DJ Moore, two other first round picks mind you, go off with new teams, setting career highs and making the Panthers look like fools.

So now, let's take our very talented edge (thanks @MHS831 for the great stat breakdown), trade him off for pennies on the dollar only to watch him go to a team and make them better.  We used to do a great job of keeping our best players (I know Hurndog made plenty of contract mistakes), but we kept our good core together.

If we trade Burns away, we lose the rest of our pass rush.  Even if we can keep Frankie, who will rush the passer?  Teams will just double Frankie and we can hope DJ Johnson or Amarie Barno suddenly become NFL contributors? Can pick 33 give us 10 sacks as a rookie and a consistent rush?  Will prime FA pass rushers be willing to come to Carolina, a team that used and abused Brian Burns?  The more I look at places like Spotrack, the more I feel like I'd much rather over pay for Burns today than hope and pray some FAs workout.

The Panthers need to get some contracts worked out for Moton, Frankie, DB, and Burns.  Those are core players that we can resign to get our cap in order for this season.  If you don't take care of your core, the rest of the team will suffer, either from lack of talent or poor morale.  Pros can see what we did to Burns, and they will remember.  Which just makes it more expensive for us to sign players.

Pros understand that this is a business and business decisions have to be made, hence why most have to look after themselves. Burns is legitimately doing that. Also, Burns and his agent probably don't have this insane idea of him being an elite DE deserving top 3 money unless they learn about this Rams trade. I don't blame them for wanting the world from the franchise. The franchise said you are one of the most valuable players in the NFL(more valuable than almost any starting QB) by turning down that trade.

This mess isn't really Burns fault, it's the Panthers FO.

That said, under no circumstances do I want to see Burns here on a top 5 DE/EDGE contract. He is not that and it is highly unlikely he ever is that.

[MHS831]

12 minutes ago, d-dave said:

I love Frankie and want to keep him, but Burns is the bigger priority.  I'm not sure why there is this impasse between the FO and Burns.  We've watched CMC and DJ Moore, two other first round picks mind you, go off with new teams, setting career highs and making the Panthers look like fools.

So now, let's take our very talented edge (thanks @MHS831 for the great stat breakdown), trade him off for pennies on the dollar only to watch him go to a team and make them better.  We used to do a great job of keeping our best players (I know Hurndog made plenty of contract mistakes), but we kept our good core together.

If we trade Burns away, we lose the rest of our pass rush.  Even if we can keep Frankie, who will rush the passer?  Teams will just double Frankie and we can hope DJ Johnson or Amarie Barno suddenly become NFL contributors? Can pick 33 give us 10 sacks as a rookie and a consistent rush?  Will prime FA pass rushers be willing to come to Carolina, a team that used and abused Brian Burns?  The more I look at places like Spotrack, the more I feel like I'd much rather over pay for Burns today than hope and pray some FAs workout.

The Panthers need to get some contracts worked out for Moton, Frankie, DB, and Burns.  Those are core players that we can resign to get our cap in order for this season.  If you don't take care of your core, the rest of the team will suffer, either from lack of talent or poor morale.  Pros can see what we did to Burns, and they will remember.  Which just makes it more expensive for us to sign players.

I was on the "trade him" bandwagon because I did not like the comment he made either.  However, if you break it down, you have to separate the emotional chest pounding from the business decision.  Burns may have a point. 

[MHS831]

7 minutes ago, csx said:

Those other guys played run defense very well.

Yall want to pay a 1 dimensional second tier pass rusher a premier contract why?

I provided their run support data.  Did you read it?

• Here is an interesting stat:  RIGHT NOW he has as many career tackle assists (95) as Charles Johnson (95) and Julius Peppers (91), two guys who got paid.  Burns is 25.  
• Burns has averaged 1.88 solo tackles per game.  Peppers averaged (as a Panther) had 2.25 solo tackles per game.  Charles Johnson averaged 1.59.

Your data? 

Edited March 6 by MHS831

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I provided their run support data.  Did you read it?

• Here is an interesting stat:  RIGHT NOW he has as many career tackle assists (95) as Charles Johnson (95) and Julius Peppers (91), two guys who got paid.  Burns is 25.  
• Burns has averaged 1.88 solo tackles per game.  Peppers averaged (as a Panther) had 2.25 solo tackles per game.  Charles Johnson averaged 1.59.

Your data? 

Tackles is not a great stat for run defense. TFL is, however.

Edited March 6 by kungfoodude

[Waldo]

LoL. Peppers and Gross were elite. Burns and Luvu are not. Luvu is good but not great. Burns should be traded for any picks they can get.

Top FAs, or any really, on bloated contracts fixes nothing for this team. Find prove it guys that are this year's Luvu from 2021 and draft well. Anything else is a hard fail of them not learning a damn thing and still trying to fix what is obviously broken vs building something longterm not broken.

Edited March 6 by Waldo

[CamWhoaaCam]

8 hours ago, PootieNunu said:

What elite talent are you adding from FA? You have a tendency to want to sign every FA that has a recognizable name regardless of the price tag or team fit. 

 

Chris Jones has been my #1 target.

 

Add him with this defense with Evero calling plays you might have the best defense in football.