What does Tim Ryan and Pat Kirwin think about our offseason?

[pantherclaw]

Yes, we are changing the face of our d-line, and some other positions. And yes, their starting experience is short..so when do you go to them? Wait until our old Vets are in wheel chairs?

I don't get some fans. All they do is complain about the loyalty Fox and Hurney show their veterans, and never going with the younger talant. Now when that happens, people continue to complain.

[GRWatcher]

What scheme was wrong for Lewis? Both Brayton and Lewis have done nothing to be amzed about. They were average players overall. So all we need to replace them is average players.

You truly don't want the team to get better do you????????? :yikes:

[MaineManPanther]

You truly don't want the team to get better do you????????? :yikes:

Based off what? The argument Im making is that its not hard to replace them and that bringing in average to above average player would do so. Although I would obviously perfer us to bring a high level player in.

[panthers55]

Im arguing about how they view the talent of the players. Obviously as this point it seems the FO has more faith in its replacemnts (if they turn out to be that) then kirwan. But I would argue the FO who has seen much more tape and practise then Kirwarn would no more in that department.

Again you assume that the FO is picking the best players. What if they simply were picking the cheapest guy who might improve with experience and won't be a big drop off. That doesn't even account for the fact that we will be worse just because we lost Peppers. I see what the front office is doing, I just don't agree with it. Then again I want to win this year not in 2012.

[Its The Milk]

Didn't see this posted but Kirwan wants us to be aggressive b-e aggressive

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d816ea534&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

[panthers55]

Didn't see this posted but Kirwan wants us to be aggressive b-e aggressive

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d816ea534&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

He is saying exactly what I and others have been saying for days. His analysis is right on. All is not lost, but we have made no moves to suggest we are going to do everything we can to fill all these holes let alone expect as many as 9 inexpereinced guys to all step up to the level of the starters all at the same time. And if we have injuries as we did last year we will be counting on reserves not even on the team to assume theroles of starters as well. We will need everything to fall our way this year. And when was the last time we didn't have our share of injuries tp starters or had guys who were expected to start come up short.

[koolkatluke]

Why are people not getting this. Kirwin and Ryan are alarmed by the mass numbers of cuts that we made. Plus the fact that we cut alot of starter. Teams USELY don't have this much turnover in 1 offseason. Special in 1 area of your team. The whole Dline now is in a situation where we need all 7-8 new player too step up. Most team may do that in 1-3 positon. We now need all the position on the line too step up plus the little too none back-ups we have now. Do you not see that we have more ? then anwsers now.

[GRWatcher]

Based off what? The argument Im making is that its not hard to replace them and that bringing in average to above average player would do so. Although I would obviously perfer us to bring a high level player in.

Average is as average does. I'm not happy with average. Let's hope no one gets hurt.

[panthers55]

Average is as average does. I'm not happy with average. Let's hope no one gets hurt.

Where are the guys who complained about Fox settling for average. Yeah where are the guys who trashed Fox because he couldn't coach and Hurney couldn't find talent or make good decisions. Now they are the same guys counting on Hurney to find all these great free agents and make fantastic draft picks while Fox has to work a miracle to whip a bunch of scrubs and reserves into a starting unit.

Funny how Fox and Hurney are expected to work some magic when only a few months ago were awful and needed to be fired. LOL

[MaineManPanther]

He is saying exactly what I and others have been saying for days. His analysis is right on. All is not lost, but we have made no moves to suggest we are going to do everything we can to fill all these holes let alone expect as many as 9 inexpereinced guys to all step up to the level of the starters all at the same time. And if we have injuries as we did last year we will be counting on reserves not even on the team to assume theroles of starters as well. We will need everything to fall our way this year. And when was the last time we didn't have our share of injuries tp starters or had guys who were expected to start come up short.

For DT

Tank has four years of the NFL and has started.

Lenaord has four years of the NFL and has started.

ED Johnston has two years of the Nfl and has started

Derek Landri has played four years of the NfL

As for LB

Anderson has been here for five years and has started several times. Playing well last year when he got a shot.

Connor has played three years here.

At the DE we are a bit on the inexpierenced side. With Brown only in his second year. However Johnson has been here for four years an has started playing well when he has been in.

In fact if youll look at this website (which watches every player on every down) http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=DE3&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Youll see Johnson and brown are both rated as having better seasons then Brayton. Johnson in paticular in number 16 of DE. Granted they played rotational, but it does show they have a good shot at atleast matching Brayton play.

And FB Fimmatea and sutton is obviously the most unproven. But seeing as we still managed 702 yards in five games hoover was injured for 5.62 ypc. We shouldnt be in a huge hole.

[panthers55]

For DT

Tank has four years of the NFL and has started.

Lenaord has four years of the NFL and has started.

ED Johnston has two years of the Nfl and has started

Derek Landri has played four years of the NfL

As for LB

Anderson has been here for five years and has started several times. Playing well last year when he got a shot.

Connor has played three years here.

At the DE we are a bit on the inexpierenced side. With Brown only in his second year. However Johnson has been here for four years an has started playing well when he has been in.

In fact if youll look at this website (which watches every player on every down) http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=DE3&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Youll see Johnson and brown are both rated as having better seasons then Brayton. Johnson in paticular in number 16 of DE. Granted they played rotational, but it does show they have a good shot at atleast matching Brayton play.

And FB Fimmatea and sutton is obviously the most unproven. But seeing as we still managed 702 yards in five games hoover was injured for 5.62 ypc. We shouldnt be in a huge hole.

Go back and tell me how many games have each of those guys started.

Let me help.

Tyler started 16 games for KC in 2008 but last year he started 2 games for KC and none for us last year. So a total of 19 games in his career and he is one of the most expereinced guys. Not much expereince in our system though. For us he has 0 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 everything. By the way until he signs the tender he is not even on our roster currently.

Leonard is another player not yet on the roster. He is also coming off IR and may or may not play well this year. He has started 5 games in his career.

Landri has started 0 games in the NFL.

Ed Johnson has started 5 games in the past 2 yearsafter starting 16 his rookie year. Seems like a huge drop off.

Add that Brown and Charles Johnson have started 3 games in their collective careers. Combined the total for all the players named above are still less than any of the starting front four let go.

Color me unimpressed.

[top dawg]

Funny how many of you discredit them and then state your own opinions as if they are more credible. Any of you work in football? Any even play? Any of you scouts?

Yeah that is what I thought.:thumbsup:

P-55, I expect more from you than this. This is a nebulous argument because the arguments about the Panthers, on either side and all sides in between, are all based on opinion. Granted, some are more educated than others, but they are all opinions just the same. Of course there are people who go over the top trying to discredit others (namecalling and such) and prove that they are right, but for the most part I just see accepted, contentious discourse.

I have never worked in football, but have played it. Moreover, and perhaps even more importantly, I have watched the Panthers pretty much religiously since they have come into existence (like many of us), and I tend to believe that these "experts" may be right about some, and dead wrong about the others. I choose to believe, based on my observation, that it's not as dire as these guys are trying to make it out to be though. Yes, we have some youngsters, but they've been waiting in the wings for years, so now it's time for them to produce. Will they be great? Probably not. Will they be the NFL version of the Bad News Bears? I don't think so. It will likely be somewhere in between.

As I have stated in an earlier thread, I don't think that Richardson is looking towards the short term, but the long term. I may be in the minority, but I don't feel that Richardson is tanking the team just to save a buck, or with the mind of getting rid of Fox and Hurney. It's all about expectations. The Big Cat is probably realistic enough to know that this coming year will not be a stellar performance, so I don't think he'll use the gold standard to decide whether or not Fox and Hurney are back for 2011 and/or beyond.

[MaineManPanther]

Go back and tell me how many games have each of those guys started.

Let me help.

Tyler started 16 games for KC in 2008 but last year he started 2 games for KC and none for us last year. So a total of 19 games in his career and he is one of the most expereinced guys. Not much expereince in our system though. For us he has 0 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 everything. By the way until he signs the tender he is not even on our roster currently.

Leonard is another player not yet on the roster. He is also coming off IR and may or may not play well this year. He has started 5 games in his career.

Landri has started 0 games in the NFL.

Ed Johnson has started 5 games in the past 2 yearsafter starting 16 his rookie year. Seems like a huge drop off.

Add that Brown and Charles Johnson have started 3 games in their collective careers. Combined the total for all the players named above are still less than any of the starting front four let go.

Color me unimpressed.

My point is the majority of players we have, have all started and/or played numerous in the NFL wether here or other teams. Its not like there making a huge trastion or learning curve. I mean lewis came here with only 19 games under his belt.

Further more, the biggest point is Lewis and Brayton have done nothing amazing more then avereage play. So to equal out there loss all we really need is to have two of those players play at the same level. I don't believe thats asking to much

[panthers55]

P-55, I expect more from you than this. This is a nebulous argument because the arguments about the Panthers, on either side and all sides in between, are all based on opinion. Granted, some are more educated than others, but they are all opinions just the same. Of course there are people who go over the top trying to discredit others (namecalling and such) and prove that they are right, but for the most part I just see accepted, contentious discourse.

I have never worked in football, but have played it. Moreover, and perhaps even more importantly, I have watched the Panthers pretty much religiously since they have come into existence (like many of us), and I tend to believe that these "experts" may be right about some, and dead wrong about the others. I choose to believe, based on my observation, that it's not as dire as these guys are trying to make it out to be though. Yes, we have some youngsters, but they've been waiting in the wings for years, so now it's time for them to produce. Will they be great? Probably not. Will they be the NFL version of the Bad News Bears? I don't think so. It will likely be somewhere in between.

As I have stated in an earlier thread, I don't think that Richardson is looking towards the short term, but the long term. I may be in the minority, but I don't feel that Richardson is tanking the team just to save a buck, or with the mind of getting rid of Fox and Hurney. It's all about expectations. The Big Cat is probably realistic enough to know that this coming year will not be a stellar performance, so I don't think he'll use the gold standard to decide whether or not Fox and Hurney are back for 2011 and/or beyond.

I have no problem with folks disagreeing with talking heads or so called experts. For the record I don't always agree with Ryan and Kirwin myself. But what annoys me are folks who dismiss all of their comments as ignorant or unknowledgeable without evidence or at least something to back it up. We can all argue about how good a particular player will be and we won't know who is right until at least October or later. But for example his contention that we cut too many guys at one time and are expecting almost 9 largely inexpereinced guys to step into starter roles all at the same time and play at a high level is pretty unrealistic. Then there is the whole problem of filling those 9 spots with good backups who are one injury away from starting. If our previous expereince is any indication, we wil lose at least 4-5 starters due to injury for at least portions of the seasons. We also have a number of guys cominf off IR who we still don't know whether their rehab will be at 100% or whether there might be setbacks.

All that combined is a dangerous recipe for problems and issues which is what Kirwi has said in 2 articles. Seems to me any rational poster here would have to at least give pause to his comments since they sound right on to me and I am not oone to go to the extremes one way or the other.

Given that Fox and Hurney are both in the last year of their contracts as are several players (all the tendered guys as well as some others like Williams) it seems that this year will be pivotal to our franchise and based on who stays or leaves at the ned of next year will determine alot about our future success. I will believe that Richardson is building for our longterm success when he actually signs guys long-term like Moore, Beason, Williams and others. Right now all of his moves look to be short-term not the other way around.