Why the Panthers Should NOT want Ben Johnson

[mrcompletely11]

4 minutes ago, Khaki Lackey said:

This guy's take isn't that great. Any coach that comes to Carolina, is risking getting Reich'ed. If you're going to risk getting your reputation ruined, you need guaranteed retirement money.

Eh, Rhule landed on his feet nicely and I doubt anyone is feeling sorry for Reich.  I think smart teams/coaches know that tepper is a buffoon at this point.

[Bear Hands]

Targeting a young gun, whether O or D with adequate NFL experience, from a legit coaching tree, is what we need.

And hopefully can identify the best HC material from that crop. 

Outside of Johnson, Waldron, & MacDonald, I’ve got one more more I’m quite interested in being Canales in TB. 

I think Johnson is still near the top of the list and for good reason.

[CRA]

when we were ready to move on from Ron Rivera....I wanted a Ben Johnson type.  That's what the NFL now is. 

However, given what Tepper has done to the franchise post Ron.....we now are in need of a Fox/Ron type once again IMO.  We are a dumpster fire. 

[CRA]

1 hour ago, onmyown said:

We don’t need a leader of men coach. That’s what an established team needs.

We need teachers. The best teams always have them. The whole leader of men BS is really short lived type coaches who never evolve or adjust and only do well with teams loaded with veteran talent.

I'd argue the opposite.  An established team needs someone to put them over the top with great Xs and Os, playing calling, etc.   Which is what we needed coming off Ron/Fox. 

A dumpster fire needs a leader of men to right the ship.  Build a respectable culture/locker room. 

We have gone backwards under Tepper. 

[Martin]

 Think this is a very poor and at best very naive take on Ben Johnson. Nobody will take a job for less than their market value just because. Asking for what he thinks he will get doesn’t mean you’re not passionate about it. Also, saying Ben would accept half from other teams is just something he made up, he has no idea. He seems really bothered by the $15 million, and there is very little substance in his argument. This shouldn’t move the needle in any direction on how you feel about Ben as a potential HC.

[BlackPanther22]

24 minutes ago, CRA said:

I'd argue the opposite.  An established team needs someone to put them over the top with great Xs and Os, playing calling, etc.   Which is what we needed coming off Ron/Fox. 

A dumpster fire needs a leader of men to right the ship.  Build a respectable culture/locker room. 

We have gone backwards under Tepper. 

I’m not coming at you so don’t take this the wrong way, but the whole “leader of men” thing when it comes to NFL head coaches is such a standard and boring talking point to me. It’s  almost like a “duh, obviously” kind of pre-requisite for being a NFL HC. I think the thing that gets me is that folks act like only one type of coach can be a leader of men, and it usually aligns with being some older, experienced/defensive minded coach. 

Im tired of this franchise leaning in that direction. The NFL and its (successful) coaches are skewing both younger and have an offensive background (although I’m not against a defensive minded HC). Mike McDaniel, Sean McVay, Kyle Shannahan, Shane Steichen, Kevin Stefanski, Nick Sirriani, are all offensive minded head coaches that are leaders of men and have their teams playing damn good football pretty consistently in some of these guys cases. They don’t achieve that without getting buy in from their guys and being “leaders of men”. 

Now, I say all this to say that I don’t necessarily think Tepper should limit himself during this coaching search but I’m also not gonna be mad at him for targeting a young OC like Ben Johnson because it’s the way the league has been trending and with the positive results to back up that trend. I just think the idea/narrative that these young OC’s can’t be great football minds AND leaders of men is a bit overplayed. 

[CRA]

29 minutes ago, BlackPanther22 said:

I’m not coming at you so don’t take this the wrong way, but the whole “leader of men” thing when it comes to NFL head coaches is such a standard and boring talking point to me. It’s  almost like a “duh, obviously” kind of pre-requisite for being a NFL HC. I think the thing that gets me is that folks act like only one type of coach can be a leader of men, and it usually aligns with being some older, experienced/defensive minded coach. 

Im tired of this franchise leaning in that direction. The NFL and its (successful) coaches are skewing both younger and have an offensive background (although I’m not against a defensive minded HC). Mike McDaniel, Sean McVay, Kyle Shannahan, Shane Steichen, Kevin Stefanski, Nick Sirriani, are all offensive minded head coaches that are leaders of men and have their teams playing damn good football pretty consistently in some of these guys cases. They don’t achieve that without getting buy in from their guys and being “leaders of men”. 

Now, I say all this to say that I don’t necessarily think Tepper should limit himself during this coaching search but I’m also not gonna be mad at him for targeting a young OC like Ben Johnson because it’s the way the league has been trending and with the positive results to back up that trend. I just think the idea/narrative that these young OC’s can’t be great football minds AND leaders of men is a bit overplayed. 

I mean, it should be a prerequisite that all coaches have.  But they don't.  We have seen that here.  

and it's not just about "leading" and someone that people will listen to.  it about building a proper culture in house.   And that's not a default either all hires have.  Lot of bad coaches.  Lot of guys that got no clue what a successful NFL culture is and looks like.  Lot of guys try to rip off others and that doesn't work either.  How many guys have attempted to ripoff Belichick's Patriot way for example.  

 But some of the culture is GM related.  It's not just talent.  You got to add the right talent and pieces.  You can't have 53 DJ Moore personality types.  You can't have 53 Steve Smith personality types.  We have really blundered in that department of late.  What players make up our present day culture?  Generally folks will just name the best players and assume they lead the right way from within.  A good coach can help the right players develop. Not just talking on the field.  I think that has been a huge issue for us of late too.  

[LinvilleGorge]

"Leader of men" is the coaching equivalent of "alpha" for players. Just a tired old stereotypical trope that doesn't really mean anything beyond "this person checks the stereotype box if I was casting this role for a movie".

[Waldo]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

"Leader of men" is the coaching equivalent of "alpha" for players. Just a tired old stereotypical trope that doesn't really mean anything beyond "this person checks the stereotype box if I was casting this role for a movie".

Leaders of men never got this team past mediocre. If that is your goal then you are just choosing a better way of losing. How many leaders of men types out of the top 10 coaches in the league (not that they can't do both but the ones known for leading over actual ability)?

Winning should be the culture that is built around in a team. The other stuff matters but winning should come first. Meh, DC tried that with Ron and they are still losing and that's really all Ron brings to the table. It's a dead end that is more of a feel good story then an actual good plan.

Doesn't matter, if Tepper is running the team the same way next year then it's going to be the same outcome regardless. Panther fans have lost their minds in all of the bad and it shows at this point. 

[philit99]

2 hours ago, Bear Hands said:

Targeting a young gun, whether O or D with adequate NFL experience, from a legit coaching tree, is what we need.

And hopefully can identify the best HC material from that crop. 

Outside of Johnson, Waldron, & MacDonald, I’ve got one more more I’m quite interested in being Canales in TB. 

I think Johnson is still near the top of the list and for good reason.

I hope it is the opposite. All these 30 something coordinators sound great, but are unknown, not necessarily established, and don’t necessarily know how to manage a team, ex (situational football, half time adjustments, time management). A new coordinator head coach will need some time to adjust to those things, plus proper game planning for all teams. At this stage, with tickets sales, team morale being at an all time low, it would be a mistake to hire anyone that is not established, with prior HC experience. I’m thinking Harbaugh, Belichick, O’Brien, etc. Otherwise, it is another gamble that has about a 20% chance of success, and watch those PSL number continue to plummet. It’s about money folks, winning cures all ailments.

[CRA]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

"Leader of men" is the coaching equivalent of "alpha" for players. Just a tired old stereotypical trope that doesn't really mean anything beyond "this person checks the stereotype box if I was casting this role for a movie".

in house culture, work environment, accountability is a real thing though that matters.  I think ours is weak and has a lot to do with our hires at HC and GM.  

lot of good X and O guys have proven to be weak in that area.  I think you got to have both from top. 

[BlackPanther22]

1 minute ago, philit99 said:

I hope it is the opposite. All these 30 something coordinators sound great, but are unknown, not necessarily established, and don’t necessarily know how to manage a team, ex (situational football, half time adjustments, time management). A new coordinator head coach will need some time to adjust to those things, plus proper game planning for all teams. At this stage, with tickets sales, team morale being at an all time low, it would be a mistake to hire anyone that is not established, with prior HC experience. I’m thinking Harbaugh, Belichick, O’Brien, etc. Otherwise, it is another gamble that has about a 20% chance of success, and watch those PSL number continue to plummet. It’s about money folks, winning cures all ailments.

This mindset got us Reich lol. Being established doesn’t automatically = better. I mean hell this past year 2 first time coaches have their teams in playoff contention in Demeco and Steichen. Young coaches can adapt quickly in the same way an established coach could lose their touch in a new situation. 
 

Honestly I think hiring a young hotshot coach would energize the fan base especially if Tepper was able to land somebody universally thought of as a “good candidate” like Ben Johnson. When the team starts winning all the other things you mentioned will increase. So I’m not passing up on potentially finding a guy who can be here for years and years just for the sake of hiring an established name.

[Manna]

Just need someone who can toughen up our guys. We’re way too soft. Bring back ‘Keep Pounding’’

Tolbert breaking that drum was symbolic 

[DeAngelo Beason]

I'll go on record saying I don't find Ben Johnson to be compelling at all.  I want Bill with McDaniels as OC.