It's an organizational problem

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It wasn't Ron. He was floated by some key elite talents. His record as a HC when he doesn't have a prime Cam at QB, Luke at MLB, and Olsen at TE is abysmal.

You can essentially do that game with almost any coach to a large degree.  Even the GOAT himself, Belichick.  All coaches are largely dependent on players at this level. 

Ron Rivera brings a certain level of competency and respect.  It was just a repeat of John Fox.  We all wanted better.  There is better.  Especially in this passing era.  But I always thought it was easier to do worse than Ron or Fox.   Which we have done. 

[LinvilleGorge]

6 minutes ago, CRA said:

Firing Ron Rivera accomplished nothing. 

The roster and coaches keep changing and the results keep getting worse. At some point it has to sink in that the issue goes beyond players and coaches.

[Selltheteamtepper]

Tepper gave Miles Sanders, an 2nd contract RB who was never explosive, $27 million. I was looking back at the draft we took DJ Johnson at the top of the 3rd. 3 of the next 4 skill players hit. Spears Archane and Wilson. We could have gotten an actual explosive offensive player for 4 years on the cheap. It’s really unbelievable mismanagement on the FO side. 

[toldozer]

How many times are we going to rehash this.  Everyone knows it. Players know it, former and potential coaches know it, the media knows it, we as fans know it. David Tepper is the only person who doesn't seem to grasp what's going on here.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

4 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I see a lot of people thinking it's an OL issue or it's an offensive skill position talent issue or it's a QB issue or it's a coaching/scheming issue or it's a talent evaluation issue.

The simple answer is "yes". The answer to all those questions is "yes" because the issue is that at the foundation, the Panthers are a poorly ran football organization.

Our schemes don't fit our talent. Aside from Bryce, we tend to draft high RAS prospects who need technique development, but when was the last time we actually developed a player? One of our big talent issues is that our draft picks tend to be as good as they're going to get the day we draft them. From then on they either plateau or regress. It's hard to develop talent in an environment of coaching revolving doors and constant schematic and football philosophy turmoil.

Our last coach openly talked about the weekly meetings with Tepper and how Tepper is a very involved owner before being fired. Tepper's influence on personnel decisions and meddling down to the level of individual play calls is widely rumored at this point.

Long story short is we have a David Tepper problem. He keeps thinking we're one knee jerk move away from being a contender and he seems utterly clueless that building a football organization and then a football team from within that organization is a process. There aren't any bandaid quick fixes in the NFL and as long as he's constantly searching for that we're going to continue to be an ever worsening poo show.

He keeps looking for that one thing that's going to turn everything around whether it's hiring a hot shot college staff or hiring a complete retread highly experienced NFL staff or trading up to #1 to get what he views as a super processor QB but he either can't or refuses to acknowledge that we aren't one thing away from being a good football ORGANIZATION. He's the problem and that's a BIG problem because an ownership issue is the one thing you can't fix. You can't fire the owner. Until he realizes that he has to focus first on building a quality football organization we're doomed and the first step to building that quality football organization is seeing himself out of it.

He needs to be honest with himself. David Tepper the owner would have already fired David Tepper the President of Football Operations which is essentially the role that he's filling. He has to recognize this reality and essentially fire himself from his current role and redefine his role within the organization because it's very obvious that this current approach hasn't worked, isn't working, and is unlikely to work in the future.

So David, if you or anyone with your ear reads this, please hire someone qualified that you trust to build you a football organization and give that person the space and freedom to do it.

I agree but I'd have to say Luvu has developed from a relatively unknown player into a pretty good one. Idk if I'd credit the org/coaching staff for him developing vs him just coming into his own and being a good player. This is why I also have trouble putting all of our offensive struggles on Young. He does deserve some blame and he very well could be one of the bigger busts of this decade but for me it's too soon to put all of that on him because look at this dumpster fire that drafted him. He didn't go to the Chiefs with Andy Reid, Eagles with Sirriani, 49ers with Shanahan, Dolphins with Mike McDaniel etc etc. Hopefully it gets better and Tepper strikes gold with his next hire but I doubt it. That really is our only hope back to relevancy because unfortunately the Teppers aren't going anywhere

Edited December 7, 2023 by Mr Mojo Risin

[LinvilleGorge]

Just now, Mr Mojo Risin said:

I agree but I'd have to say Luvu has developed from a relatively unknown player into a pretty good one. Idk if I'd credit the org/coaching staff for him developing vs him just coming into his own and being a good player. This is why I also have trouble putting all of our offensive struggles on Young. He does deserve some blame and he very well could be one if the bigger busts of this decade but for me it's too soon to out all of that on him because look at this dumpster fire that drafted him. He didn't go to the Chiefs with Andy Reid, Eagles with Sirriani, 49ers with Shanahan, Dolphins with Mike McDaniel etc etc. Hopefully it gets better and Tepper strikes gold with his next hire but I doubt it. That really is our only hope back to relevancy.

So we have one. One player who has developed.

In no way does Bryce deserve all the blame for our offensive woes and I don't think anyone has really suggested that. If we had a great QB we'd still have a bland system, struggling OL, and subpar skill position players. My issue with Bryce is his numerous technique issues combined with his low physical ceiling. He just hasn't given us very many at all plays to give us hope that he'll live up to the investment we made. I mean, if I'm being honest you could build a better QB highlight reel out of the Bengals' and Jags' backup QBs from their recent game than you could Bryce using his entire season of film. I honestly don't think that's an exaggeration.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

So we have one. One player who has developed.

In no way does Bryce deserve all the blame for our offensive woes and I don't think anyone has really suggested that. If we had a great QB we'd still have a bland system, struggling OL, and subpar skill position players. My issue with Bryce is his numerous technique issues combined with his low physical ceiling. He just hasn't given us very many at all plays to give us hope that he'll live up to the investment we made. I mean, if I'm being honest you could build a better QB highlight reel out of the Bengals' and Jags' backup QBs from their recent game than you could Bryce using his entire season of film. I honestly don't think that's an exaggeration.

No doubt it hasn't been pretty but there seems to have been dysfunction in the coaching staff from the get go. Why would they all sign off on not working on foot work/technique in the offseason? That was Reichs decision? Then what was McCowns role? Currently Bryce doesn't have a QB coach lol its all just really really weird and I definitely blame Tepper for putting that sort of environment together there were just too many coaches with too many different philosophies. On paper it looked great but in reality no one was on the same page it seems. Young needs a legit chance to start over this offseason. He took his lumps this year and unfortunately looks to be developing bad habits and it's getting worse as the season rolls on. I do wonder how much it could have benefited him to sit for a few weeks after the Bears blunder. We'll never know. Just have to hope he can get some proper coaching and improve next year. I don't expect him to have textbook technique because he's below average when it comes to size so it will look a little different than it would with someone who has prototypical size for the position but he has to speed up whatever he's doing I will say the casual slow drop back does throw the timing of the offense off by a good bit. Gotta get that fixed forsure.

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

No doubt it hasn't been pretty but there seems to have been dysfunction in the coaching staff from the get go. Why would they all sign off on not working on foot work/technique in the offseason? That was Reichs decision? Then what was McCowns role? Currently Bryce doesn't have a QB coach lol its all just really really weird and I definitely blame Tepper for putting that sort of environment together there were just too many coaches with too many different philosophies. On paper it looked great but in reality no one was on the same page it seems. Young needs a legit chance to start over this offseason. He took his lumps this year and unfortunately looks to be developing bad habits and it's getting worse as the season rolls on. I do wonder how much it could have benefited him to sit for a few weeks after the Bears blunder. We'll never know. Just have to hope he can get some proper coaching and improve next year. I don't expect him to have textbook technique because he's below average when it comes to size so it will look a little different than it would with someone who has prototypical size for the position but he has to speed up whatever he's doing I will say the casual slow drop back does throw the timing of the offense off by a good bit. Gotta get that fixed forsure.

When everything is always dysfunctional, look higher up the chain.

[amcoolio]

12 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

So we have one. One player who has developed.

In no way does Bryce deserve all the blame for our offensive woes and I don't think anyone has really suggested that. If we had a great QB we'd still have a bland system, struggling OL, and subpar skill position players. My issue with Bryce is his numerous technique issues combined with his low physical ceiling. He just hasn't given us very many at all plays to give us hope that he'll live up to the investment we made. I mean, if I'm being honest you could build a better QB highlight reel out of the Bengals' and Jags' backup QBs from their recent game than you could Bryce using his entire season of film. I honestly don't think that's an exaggeration.

The system is really bad. Bryce has been bad, but the system here is just atrocious. Bengals and Jags have established, efficient offensive systems (even though Lawrence hasn't been executing) I'll give Bryce next year because I still think he can play like Brees if he's in the right system with the right players and fixes his footwork and dropback. 

I don't get the sense that Bryce is shellshocked like Darnold or Zach Wilson. If anything he isn't afraid to take the hit to make the play. Darnold was 100% afraid to take hits

[parker]

3 hours ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

Hasn’t the weekly meeting been a thing since he got here? 
Rivera and Rhule both said they would have weekly meetings. 
I don’t know why people are making a big deal out of this. 
I am very certain other teams HC have weekly meetings. We are not unique. 

Because they want to find some blame for all the losing.  Right now it's the one thing that can't be disproved.  People were wanting Rhule and Reich fired.  Then wehn he does, he's a meddling owner.

[CRA]

14 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

The system is really bad. Bryce has been bad, but the system here is just atrocious. Bengals and Jags have established, efficient offensive systems (even though Lawrence hasn't been executing) I'll give Bryce next year because I still think he can play like Brees if he's in the right system with the right players and fixes his footwork and dropback. 

I don't get the sense that Bryce is shellshocked like Darnold or Zach Wilson. If anything he isn't afraid to take the hit to make the play. Darnold was 100% afraid to take hits

Trevor had a winning record, won the division, and went to postseason in his first year with Doug.  Finished top 10 in yards. 

Trevor has a winning record this year with Doug, leads the division and would be in the playoffs if they started today.  Currently top 10 in yards. 

How has a 2nd and 3rd year player not been executing?  Also completing 67% of his passes his 2 years with Doug. 

 

[Panthercougar68]

12 minutes ago, CRA said:

Trevor had a winning record, won the division, and went to postseason in his first year with Doug.  Finished top 10 in yards. 

Trevor has a winning record this year with Doug, leads the division and would be in the playoffs if they started today.  Currently top 10 in yards. 

How has a 2nd and 3rd year player not been executing?  Also completing 67% of his passes his 2 years with Doug. 

 

Trevor has been polarizing to groups of people. It’s the low TD numbers for some reason but it’s also because Doug draws up runs in the red zone.

Also people assume he would put up Manning numbers or something.

[LinvilleGorge]

2 hours ago, CRA said:

You can essentially do that game with almost any coach to a large degree.  Even the GOAT himself, Belichick.  All coaches are largely dependent on players at this level. 

Ron Rivera brings a certain level of competency and respect.  It was just a repeat of John Fox.  We all wanted better.  There is better.  Especially in this passing era.  But I always thought it was easier to do worse than Ron or Fox.   Which we have done. 

Did he honestly bring any higher level of competency and respect than someone like Reich? 

[CRA]

7 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Did he honestly bring any higher level of competency and respect than someone like Reich? 

I personally think so.  I think he brings a different level of street cred with the players.  And I think he is a better defensive coach in general than Frank is an offensive one.   I also think Fox and Ron had more motivational fire to them than Frank. 

I'd rank Fox and Rivera both ahead of Frank Reich as NFL coaches.   I mean, it's the same general tier though.  I always called Frank an offensive Fox/Ron.  I think they are better.  

I don't think we have done better since we fired Ron Rivera.  Ron isn't a good NFL HC.  But it's still way easier to find worse.