RB Coach Duce Staley and QB Coach Josh McCown fired

[Mage]

10 minutes ago, frankw said:

If you trade up for a QB at first overall and you are not getting a player with any level of that ability or elevating the moving parts around him then you made a bad trade that's the unfortunate reality of our situation. What we are left with now is salvaging this.

I think we're moving around all over the place here. How is Hurts doing this year without last years OC Steichen? Up and down at best right? The NFC is ripe for the taking for anyone. The Eagles and the 49ers are the cream of the crop and they are certainly beatable.

It's funny you mention Goff. He was Stroud's ceiling comp often leading up the draft. Now look at how he's doing.

I am not saying QB coach does not matter at all. I don't know why I have to keep repeating it. But a QB coach is not a magician or a witch doctor. He cannot alter the phsycial make up or limitations of the player. He can only work with what he has. Take Bryce Young's footwork for example. He has these habits that he's created the last few years that are centered around helping him compensate for his height and to see the field. That is not something any coach is going to be able to change in relatively short time. And with this OL? Good fuging luck right?

Our best hope is to lure Ben Johnson and throw a ransom at him. And if we can't get him then throw everything we have at Bobby Slowik possibly.

I can't keep arguing about all this. I want the same thing you and the other guy want. I want Bryce Young to succeed here. I do not want to have traded DJ Moore for a failure. But I am not going to bury my head in the sand in the meantime. I will speak on what I see good or bad.

Enjoy your day fellas.

Bro, what are you talking about?  I am not talking about Bryce Young.  Not everything that is discussed on this forum is about Bryce Young.  I am talking about the value of a QB coach, which you tried downplaying because Cam overcame bad coaching.

[PanthersGTI]

2 minutes ago, Mage said:

Bro, what are you talking about?  I am not talking about Bryce Young.  Not everything that is discussed on this forum is about Bryce Young.  I am talking about the value of a QB coach, which you tried downplaying because Cam overcame bad coaching.

He let hate cloud his reading comprehension. 

[frankw]

14 minutes ago, Mage said:

Bro, what are you talking about?  I am not talking about Bryce Young.  Not everything that is discussed on this forum is about Bryce Young.  I am talking about the value of a QB coach, which you tried downplaying because Cam overcame bad coaching.

The only reason Cam is even being discussed here is because he was mentioned as a defense mechanism. Then folks like you want to turn around and diminish him. You honestly deserve a bust QB.

[Mage]

5 minutes ago, frankw said:

The only reason Cam is even being discussed here is because he was mentioned as a defense mechanism. Then folks like you want to turn around and diminish him. You honestly deserve a bust QB.

How am I diminishing him?  I literally said he was my favorite player ever.  

Do you think Cam Newton was consistent game-to-game, year-to-year?  Or is he somehow exempt from criticism?  Look at Cam's 2014 and 2016 seasons.  He was not a consistent QB.  And since you don't like when Bryce "Stans" point to outside reasons for his struggles, don't be a hypocrite and do the same for Cam.

I love Cam.  But he was an inconsistent QB.  Everyone knows this.  It isn't diminishing him.  It is stating facts.  And that is why he was never in top-5 talks outside of 2015, if we're just being real.
 

If Cam was able to improve his mechanics and become a better, more accurate passer underneath, he would have been even more dangerous than he was.  And that is on coaching. If you think Newton maximized his potential in the NFL, then you are kidding yourself.   We should have had 2015 Newton more than once.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Mage

[PanthersGTI]

13 minutes ago, frankw said:

The only reason Cam is even being discussed here is because he was mentioned as a defense mechanism. Then folks like you want to turn around and diminish him. You honestly deserve a bust QB.

I brought Cam up. 100% it was known that they really just let Cam be Cam. Which was amazing, I love the dude. Me a literal grown man who had tears in his eyes after Cam came back and scored in Arizona a few years ago. So none of this is diminishing Cam.

If everyone remembers he actually got some coaching on his mechanics and fundamentals before the 2018 season. This was the first time they tried actually using the QB coach with Cam and not just having it be his buddy. I believe it was a shorter, tighter throwing motion and really working on setting his feet. That was right before his best career completion percentage and I think he was like 15-2 TD/INT. It 100% made him a better QB and he was on pace to have his best "traditional" QB season until his shoulder gave out. I remember the details homie, I ain't talking bullshit here. 

 

No one is trying to trash Cam. Ron Rivera and his staff did not want to challenge Cam at all on his mechanics until the older Turner came in and they actually worked with him to improve. Cam Newton is the proof in the pudding that you need a good QB coach to get the most out of your QB. Someone has to guide them and correct them. 

[frankw]

16 minutes ago, Mage said:

How am I diminishing him?  I literally said he was my favorite player ever.  

Do you think Cam Newton was consistent game-to-game, year-to-year?  Or is he somehow exempt from criticism?  Look at Cam's 2014 and 2016 seasons.  He was not a consistent QB.  And since you don't like when Bryce "Stans" point to outside reasons for his struggles, don't be a hypocrite and do the same for Cam.

I love Cam.  But he was an inconsistent QB.  Everyone knows this.  It isn't diminishing him.  It is stating facts.  And that is why he was never in top-5 talks outside of 2015, if we're just being real.
 

If Cam was able to improve his mechanics and become a better, more accurate passer underneath, he would have been even more dangerous than he was.  And that is on coaching. If you think Newton maximized his potential in the NFL, then you are kidding yourself.   We should have had 2015 Newton more than once.

Oh don't even try me on that stan nonsense. I got quite a lot of poo reactions here from people when I stated unequivocally multiple times that Cam's arm was not the same and he was clearly done as a starter in this league. We navigated the process of moving on from him as poorly as possible however and we have been flailing ever since. I'll argue that until the end of my days.

Cam never reached his full ceiling because of his own pride and a choice to simply get by on his sheer phsyicality. He did let us down in the Super Bowl though he was certainly not alone in that. But until we see another MVP for this franchise I will remain in my position that I will speak up on his behalf because certainly more often than not he made football enjoyable and he brought a culture and aura to this franchise that has clearly been extinguished.

6 minutes ago, PanthersGTI said:

I brought Cam up. 100% it was known that they really just let Cam be Cam. Which was amazing, I love the dude. Me a literal grown man who had tears in his eyes after Cam came back and scored in Arizona a few years ago. So none of this is diminishing Cam.

If everyone remembers he actually got some coaching on his mechanics and fundamentals before the 2018 season. This was the first time they tried actually using the QB coach with Cam and not just having it be his buddy. I believe it was a shorter, tighter throwing motion and really working on setting his feet. That was right before his best career completion percentage and I think he was like 15-2 TD/INT. It 100% made him a better QB and he was on pace to have his best "traditional" QB season until his shoulder gave out. I remember the details homie, I ain't talking bullshit here. 

 

No one is trying to trash Cam. Ron Rivera and his staff did not want to challenge Cam at all on his mechanics until the older Turner came in and they actually worked with him to improve. Cam Newton is the proof in the pudding that you need a good QB coach to get the most out of your QB. Someone has to guide them and correct them. 

My guy. Norv was the OC.

Scott Turner who still pretty much had Enfamil on his breath was the QB coach.

Edited November 28, 2023 by frankw

[Mr. Scot]

Chris Tabor's explanation today seemed to be that they felt Young having essentially two quarterback coaches (Josh McCown and passing game coordinator Parks Frazier) was too much.

Thus, they parted ways with McCown, which I'm going to guess is a Jim Caldwell decision. He'd have some connection with Frazier from the past I believe.

If he said anything about Duce Staley though, I missed it. Might have to go back and listen again

Edited November 28, 2023 by Mr. Scot

[Varking]

2 hours ago, BY9Franchise said:

Nope literally just a bunch of men being dramatic and butthurt.... not speculation implies even the hint of fact here there is none.

Huh? I said I was speculating. I don’t know why I would be hurt over his firing. 

[PanthersGTI]

3 minutes ago, frankw said:

Oh don't even try me on that stan nonsense. I got quite a lot of poo reactions here from people when I stated unequivocally multiple times that Cam's arm was not the same and he was clearly done as a starter in this league. We navigated the process of moving on from him as poorly as possible however and we have been flailing ever since. I'll argue that until the end of my days.

Cam never reached his full ceiling because of his own pride and a choice to simply get by on his sheer phsyicality. He did let us down in the Super Bowl though he was certainly not alone in that. But until we see another MVP for this franchise I will remain in my position that I will speak up on his behalf because certainly more often than not he made football enjoyable and he brought a culture and aura to this franchise that has clearly been extinguished.

My guy. Norv was the OC.

Scott Turner who still pretty much had Enfamil on his breath was the QB coach.

Right.....my point still stands. They finally decided to do some actually QB coaching with Cam and it made a huge difference. It was just too late, his should was a big hit away from blowing up. Like what are you not understanding here? 

 

Which brings us back to the original point.....QB coaches do matter and make a difference. Which you seemed to disagree with. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by PanthersGTI

[frankw]

2 minutes ago, PanthersGTI said:

Right.....my point still stands. They finally decided to do some actually QB coaching with Cam and it made a huge difference. It was just too late, his should was a big hit away from blowing up. Like what are you not understanding here? 

So who was doing the coaching there was it the former HC and the OC Norv Turner or was it his son a nepotism hire?

Offensive coordinator is the key!

Edited November 28, 2023 by frankw

[Mage]

9 minutes ago, frankw said:

Cam never reached his full ceiling because of his own pride and a choice to simply get by on his sheer phsyicality. He did let us down in the Super Bowl though he was certainly not alone in that. 

So you agree that he wasn't a consistent QB?  Can you then explain how I diminished him or how I am "one of those people" if you also agree?

I am not sure what you are responding to in your other stuff.  Almost like you are just reading what you want to read.

[PanthersGTI]

14 minutes ago, frankw said:

So who was doing the coaching there was it the former HC and the OC Norv Turner or was it his son a nepotism hire?

Offensive coordinator is the key!

Do you think Norv was down there coaching Cam on his mechanics on the day to day? That was the QB coach.....you are being obtuse for no reason. Do you think all 32 NFL teams hire QB coaches for no reason when they have an OC? 

[frankw]

1 minute ago, Mage said:

So you agree that he wasn't a consistent QB?  Can you then explain how I diminished him or how I am "one of those people" if you also agree?

I am not sure what you are responding to in your other stuff.  Almost like you are just reading what you want to read.

What does that even entail? Saying he was inconsistent is vague and could cover any number of aspects.

Are you referring to his game to game or year to year performance as a passer? Are you referring to his effort in improving?

As a passer he was up and down I've talked about this many times. But he still had the necessary phsyical requirement to put the ball wherever he wanted with the necessary velocity if his footwork was even halfway decent at the time. Honestly the only way we would have seen Cam with proper footwork play in and play out on a consistent basis throughout a season was if he basically was not a running threat. He was never going to be a pocket passer. We didn't draft him to be a pocket passer. We drafted him for his distinct phsyical abilities that he used to bully his way to a championship with Auburn. Ron Rivera even as shitty of a coach as he was at times knew this.

I don't know what a strictly pocket passer version of Cam would have looked like. One thing I'll certainly acknowledge is short passes and screen passes were not his forte.

But the guy was a baller in his youth. I never really expected him to play at that level deep into his thirties. He and we had our chances to maximize his time here and it didn't work out. Life goes on.

[frankw]

6 minutes ago, PanthersGTI said:

Do you think Norv was down there coaching Cam on his mechanics on the day to day? That was the QB coach.....you are being obtuse for no reason. Do you think all 32 NFL teams hire QB coaches for no reason when they have an OC? 

You brought up the 2018 season. We aren't talking about 31 other teams QB coaching hires. IMO Norv Turner had the significant impact on any strides Newton made in that ill fated season. He had the resume. Not his son Scott who has since taken a demotion as a passing game coordinator after getting a shot as OC the year before.