RB Coach Duce Staley and QB Coach Josh McCown fired

[countryboi]

20 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

McCown fired over Bryce, a quarterback that wasn't his choice.

Staley fired over Sanders I guess, but Hubbard and Blackshear were both improved over last year.

Yall know this don’t make sense right? Why would anyone lose their job for a player that’s not on the roster.  McCown was fired because Bryce has been ass 

[PanthersGTI]

15 minutes ago, frankw said:

I see folks have taken to shitting on McCown now after fawning over his breakdown videos many months ago.

Maybe he was the wrong choice. Maybe we shouldn't have hired a QB coach with no previous experience doing so.

Or maybe the QB coach doesn't matter as much as ya'll think and you still need a player with the necessary traits to make the jump to the next level.

Below is CJ Stroud's QB coach.

Anyone going to tell me he has significantly more experience than McCown?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerrod_Johnson

You seemed to have missed the most important difference between Johnson and McCown. The years of coaching experience.....like WHAT? QB coach doesn't matter? Who do you think is working with these guys? Just because until now we just let Cam do Cam and then hired a bunch of bums doesn't mean its not an important position throughout the NFL. 

[frankw]

Just now, PanthersGTI said:

You seemed to have missed the most important difference between Johnson and McCown. The years of coaching experience.....like WHAT? QB coach doesn't matter? Who do you think is working with these guys? Just because until now we just let Cam do Cam and then hired a bunch of bums doesn't mean its not an important position throughout the NFL. 

One season as a quality control assistant one season as an assistant QB coach.

What a resume!

The difference folks with blinders here don't want to admit is the QB he has had to work with had all the necessary physical tools for a franchise QB and every bit of that has successfully translated.

Bryce Young? Crickets.

[frankw]

Also since you want to drag Cam Newton into this (getting really old btw) what exactly did Ken Dorsey do for Cam? Did his footwork ever improve? It didn't matter while he was in his prime because Cam was one of the most phsyically gifted quarterbacks in history. Dorsey should be thanking Newton now until the day he dies for what he did to open doors for him despite being little more than a cheerleader. We see where he is now.

Edited November 28, 2023 by frankw

[WhoKnows]

12 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

Chubba is noticeably better. He’s bigger. Runs with more power/aggression. His hands have stood out to me too. 
 

However the stats of a back are so heavily influenced by the performance of the line, and that line has been NOTICEABLY worse.

 

I really hope it is a scheme mismatch. Otherwise, we are much more screwed if everyone just overachieved last season. 

I really feel like you guys don’t remember the progress Chuba made last year. At the start of 2022, he had some fumbles and mistakes and by the end of 2022 he was considered a key cog. Most people wanted us to just resign Foreman and go with Chuba and Foreman in 2023. You don’t start the season as someone people want us to release to be someone we felt fine about as our future with Foreman if you didn’t get a lot better.

In the 6-6 finish, we still had some games where we had trouble running the ball and in 4 games, Chuba caught 12 of 13 targets for 160 yards. He hasn’t come close to that this year outside of totals because he was barely used in the passing game until the last 8 games.

He’s basically the same in 2023 as he was in 2022, which was a giant leap from 2021. The only difference is that his 2023 numbers are down a lot per carry/reception mostly due to the OL/playcalling. That said, the broad strokes that he’s much better in 2023 than 2022 doesn’t hold water IMHO.

[LegioX]

From the Charlotte Observer

[Mage]

37 minutes ago, frankw said:

Also since you want to drag Cam Newton into this (getting really old btw) what exactly did Ken Dorsey do for Cam? Did his footwork ever improve? It didn't matter while he was in his prime because Cam was one of the most phsyically gifted quarterbacks in history.

I mean, I love Cam Newton as much as the next guy... but it absolutely *did* matter.  Newton didn't maximize his potential as a QB (outside of 2015) because of it.  

[frankw]

1 minute ago, Mage said:

I mean, I love Cam Newton as much as the next guy... but it absolutely *did* matter.  Newton didn't maximize his potential as a QB (outside of 2015) because of it.  

That's why I said in his prime. Clearly once those physical gifts began to diminish he was unable to adjust. Time is undefeated. I've already acknowledged one of the biggest things that could have changed his career was better footwork. But regardless Cam showed from game one of the regular season that he belonged in the league. That is what you want and expect to see from a #1 pick.

[Mage]

8 minutes ago, frankw said:

That's why I said in his prime. Clearly once those physical gifts began to diminish he was unable to adjust. 

What are we calling his prime then?  Because outside of 2015, Cam Newton was always someone you didn't know what to expect game-to-game.  And that isn't me hating on Cam.  He is my favorite player ever.  But I'd argue he's absolutely proof that a QB Coach matters a hell of a lot.  Cam in general would have benefited from entering in today's NFL and working with someone who knew how to get the most out of him and refine some of his skills.  

 

[frankw]

Just now, Mage said:

What are we calling his prime then?  Because outside of 2015, Cam Newton was always someone you didn't know what to expect game-to-game.  And that isn't me hating on Cam.  He is my favorite player ever.  But I'd argue he's absolutely proof that a QB Coach matters a hell of a lot.  Cam in general would have benefited from entering in today's NFL and working with someone who knew how to get the most out of him and refine some of his skills. 

Cam was up and down at times no doubt but he is the only MVP in team history for a reason. He still gave us hope more often than not and he was vilified for despising losing early on often regarded as a sore loser. Give me a sore loser any day of the week.

I'd argue offensive coordinator and particularly head coach is more important. Mike Shula despite how much many of us despised the man did more for Cam than his QB coach. And Ron Rivera would have been fired by season 2 if not for Cam's heroics that often lifted the team.

At the end of the day my point was simple. Regardless of the QB coach the player he is tasked with working and developing still has to have to prerequisite phsyical traits to succeed at this level. Cam had them. CJ Stroud has them. Does Bryce Young?

[PanthersGTI]

9 minutes ago, Mage said:

What are we calling his prime then?  Because outside of 2015, Cam Newton was always someone you didn't know what to expect game-to-game.  And that isn't me hating on Cam.  He is my favorite player ever.  But I'd argue he's absolutely proof that a QB Coach matters a hell of a lot.  Cam in general would have benefited from entering in today's NFL and working with someone who knew how to get the most out of him and refine some of his skills.  

 

100% it was known that they really just let Cam be Cam. Which was amazing, I love the dude. If everyone remembers he actually got some coaching on his mechanics and fundamentals. I believe it was a shorter, tighter throwing motion and really working on setting his feet. That was right before his best career completion percentage and I think he was like 15-2 TD/INT. It 100% made him a better QB and he was on pace to have his best "traditional" QB season until his shoulder gave out. I remember the details homie, I ain't talking bullshit here. 

 

No one is trying to trash Cam. Ron Rivera and his staff did not want to challenge Cam at all on his mechanics until the older Turner came in and they actually worked with him to improve. Cam Newton is the proof in the pudding that you need a good QB coach to get the most out of your QB. Someone has to guide them and correct them. 

[Mage]

10 minutes ago, frankw said:

At the end of the day my point was simple. Regardless of the QB coach the player he is tasked with working and developing still has to have to prerequisite phsyical traits to succeed at this level. Cam had them. CJ Stroud has them. Does Bryce Young?

Sure, there are guys that are so good it doesn't matter who is coaching them.  But not every QB is like that. I get what you are saying, but I feel as if you are downplaying the importance of a QB coach (and therefore coaching) to the development and production of a QB.  Yes, certain guys can overcome that, and yes, those are the kind of QBs you want at No. 1.  But look at Jared Goff.  Look at Buffalo and Year 1-2 NFL Josh Allen vs now.  Hell, look at the development of Jalen Hurts.    

And I'm not saying Bryce is like any of those or that we should expect that kind of progress from him.  My point is simply that coaching and the QB coach for a QB can be EXTREMELY important.  Jalen Hurts is a phenomenal QB, but he benefited tremendously from being surrounded by brilliant coaches like Sirianni, Steichen, and Johnson.  I don't think Cam Newton overcoming bad coaching = every QB should be able to overcome it if they are good.  Because guys like Cam are the exception.  You have guys like Jared Goff, who I would consider to be a good QB, who absolutely do need competent coaching around them (at least in early in their development) to become the player they are today.  

[PanthersGTI]

1 minute ago, Mage said:

Sure, there are guys that are so good it doesn't matter who is coaching them.  But not every QB is like that. I get what you are saying, but I feel as if you are downplaying the importance of a QB coach (and therefore coaching) to the development and production of a QB.  Yes, certain guys can overcome that, and yes, those are the kind of QBs you want at No. 1.  But look at Jared Goff.  Look at Buffalo and Year 1-2 NFL Josh Allen vs now.  Hell, look at the development of Jalen Hurts.    

And I'm not saying Bryce is like any of those or that we should expect that kind of progress from him.  My point is simply that coaching and the QB coach for a QB can be EXTREMELY important.  Jalen Hurts is a phenomenal QB, but he benefited tremendously from being surrounded by brilliant coaches like Sirianni, Steichen, and Johnson.  I don't think Cam Newton overcoming bad coaching = every QB should be able to overcome it if they are good.  Because guys like Cam are the exception.  You have guys like Jared Goff, who I would consider to be a good QB, who absolutely do need competent coaching around them (at least in early in their development) to become the player they are today.  

He isn't sold on Bryce period. That's not going to change unless Bryce produces. Most people can see that the team is so trash you can't judge him without getting him into a better scenario ASAP, but some have decided his fate. 

 

Not saying he will, because fug if I know, but I wonder if that same "he's too small" energy stays if he balls out next year? He sure as hell has shown the be durable at least. 

[frankw]

1 minute ago, Mage said:

Sure, there are guys that are so good it doesn't matter who is coaching them.  But not every QB is like that. I get what you are saying, but I feel as if you are downplaying the importance of a QB coach (and therefore coaching) to the development and production of a QB.  Yes, certain guys can overcome that, and yes, those are the kind of QBs you want at No. 1.  But look at Jared Goff.  Look at Buffalo and Year 1-2 NFL Josh Allen vs now.  Hell, look at the development of Jalen Hurts.    

And I'm not saying Bryce is like any of those or that we should expect that kind of progress from him.  My point is simply that coaching and the QB coach for a QB can be EXTREMELY important.  Jalen Hurts is a phenomenal QB, but he benefited tremendously from being surrounded by brilliant coaches like Sirianni, Steichen, and Johnson.  I don't think Cam Newton overcoming bad coaching = every QB should be able to overcome it if they are good.  Because guys like Cam are the exception.  You have guys like Jared Goff, who I would consider to be a good QB, who absolutely do need competent coaching around them (at least in early in their development) to become the player they are today.  

If you trade up for a QB at first overall and you are not getting a player with any level of that ability or elevating the moving parts around him then you made a bad trade that's the unfortunate reality of our situation. What we are left with now is salvaging this.

I think we're moving around all over the place here. How is Hurts doing this year without last years OC Steichen? Up and down at best right? The NFC is ripe for the taking for anyone. The Eagles and the 49ers are the cream of the crop and they are certainly beatable.

It's funny you mention Goff. He was Stroud's ceiling comp often leading up the draft. Now look at how he's doing.

I am not saying QB coach does not matter at all. I don't know why I have to keep repeating it. But a QB coach is not a magician or a witch doctor. He cannot alter the phsycial make up or limitations of the player. He can only work with what he has. Take Bryce Young's footwork for example. He has these habits that he's created the last few years that are centered around helping him compensate for his height and to see the field. That is not something any coach is going to be able to change in relatively short time. And with this OL? Good fuging luck right?

Our best hope is to lure Ben Johnson and throw a ransom at him. And if we can't get him then throw everything we have at Bobby Slowik possibly.

I can't keep arguing about all this. I want the same thing you and the other guy want. I want Bryce Young to succeed here. I do not want to have traded DJ Moore for a failure. But I am not going to bury my head in the sand in the meantime. I will speak on what I see good or bad.

Enjoy your day fellas.