Retooling the offensive approach...

[Mr. Scot]

7 minutes ago, raleigh-panther said:

as I alluded to, for months, therein lies the exact problem  

I’ve seen enough to know I do not want to see anymore 

dearth of common sense 

there is zero, and I mean zero, tactical to strategic planning goi g in frim too to bottom 

any GM who thought as Fitterer does, needs to be gone   You can  never, ever stop in one player and go unless it’s already a perfect roster with an unchanged system and the player being dropped, in, fits it 

You could argue that they did have a system you could have dropped a quarterback into, just not this quarterback.

You've got a West Coast quarterback trying to run an offense that's pretty poorly tooled for a West Coast attack.

It's not so poorly built for a Coryell style quarterback, but that's not what we have.

[Jay Roosevelt]

I can't fathom why they're trying to force this OL into a zone blocking unit.

[CRA]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

You could argue that they did have a system you could have dropped a quarterback into, just not this quarterback.

You've got a West Coast quarterback trying to run an offense that's pretty poorly tooled for a West Coast attack.

It's not so poorly built for a Coryell style quarterback, but that's not what we have.

Bryce would largely fit this system….with OL talent that fit it and WRs that fit.  It might not be ideal but we would be fuctional and respectable.  

Biggest problem is our coaches are just flat out bad.  You can isolate that evidence.  They might not have what they want or need….but they are showing zero ability to make the best of what they got and actually….coach well.  Good coaching can be found in bad seasons.   Frank needs to retire. 

there is literally no point in keeping him around.  Sure Tepper sucks.  But what’s done and is done and he is the owner.  Frank is David Carring him so you have to fire him.  It’s the only smart move.  Or you force Frank to sit Bryce.  To pointlessly keep a bad coach that can’t really coach…to let him tinkering with Bryce next year in a possibly better situation.  But what’s the point. 

[raleigh-panther]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

You could argue that they did have a system you could have dropped a quarterback into, just not this quarterback.

You've got a West Coast quarterback trying to run an offense that's pretty poorly tooled for a West Coast attack.

It's not so poorly built for a Coryell style quarterback, but that's not what we have.

And that, is more egregious then ‘simply dropping in a player’ 

two top offensive players and high draft picks went down the toilet with those decisions 

Anyone who continues to support this franchise financially is an idiot   I am in that group temporarily 

 

[Martin]

5 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

I can't fathom why they're trying to force this OL into a zone blocking unit.

100% this. I also can’t understand why nobody has asked that question in a press conference. It is absolutely mind boggling and why the whole offensive side of the coaching staff should be fired. It is such a basic thing. 

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

Bryce would largely fit this system….with OL talent that fit it and WRs that fit.  It might not be ideal but we would be fuctional and respectable.  

Biggest problem is our coaches are just flat out bad.  You can isolate that evidence.  They might not have what they want or need….but they are showing zero ability to make the best of what they got and actually….coach well.  Good coaching can be found in bad seasons.   Frank needs to retire. 

there is literally no point in keeping him around.  Sure Tepper sucks.  But what’s done and is done and he is the owner.  Frank is David Carring him so you have to fire him.  It’s the only smart move.  Or you force Frank to sit Bryce.  To pointlessly keep a bad coach that can’t really coach…to let him tinkering with Bryce next year in a possibly better situation.  But what’s the point. 

Not really...

The offense has predominantly Coryell style personnel. That includes both the line and the skill players. To run that system, you need a longball style quarterback like Stroud. Heli, even Anthony Richardson would hit that sort of approach.

Instead, we have a West Coast type of quarterback.

[LinvilleGorge]

43 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

And here's what I don't get...

You've got guys like Jim Caldwell, a successful head coach in his own right, in the mix. Plus someone like Duce Staley who's worked not only with Reich but with Ben Johnson and others. And of course, Reich, who pioneered things like mesh concepts and triangle reads.

How, in the midst of all that, does no one see the mismatch between personnel and approach?

This especially when it was stated from the beginning that the idea was to tailor the schemes to the players?

It all points back to David Tepper IMO. We had a bunch of college guys under Rhule but now we have a bunch of legit NFL guys. Are they young, brilliant, innovative, cutting edge type guys? No. But they're not the bumbling incompetent buffoons they look like under Tepper. They wouldn't have lasted so long in this league if they were.

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

It all points back to David Tepper IMO. We had a bunch of college guys under Rhule but now we have a bunch of legit NFL guys. Are they young, brilliant, innovative, cutting edge type guys? No. But they're not the bumbling incompetent buffoons they look like under Tepper. They wouldn't have lasted so long in this league if they were.

I'm coming around to the belief that we didn't go the quarterback route that Frank Reich wanted, whether it was Derek Carr CJ Stroud or whomever.

If true, there are two people potentially responsible for that...

One of them is Scott Fitterer. He himself said he was sold on Young long before Reich ever got here. But he's also known as a consensus builder and a believer in collaborative approaches. So does it make sense that he'd override the head coach he hired?

The other option, of course, is David Tepper. And on that front, you've got numerous examples of him interfering in both big and small ways with football operations. But perhaps more to the point, the chatter from reliable sources (including Reich) that he's too hands on.

Mind you, it could also be a combination, i e. Fitterer being basically the right hand of Tepper. In a case like that, it doesn't matter who the GM is because they're just a figurehead.

What's the truth? Wish I knew.

[Mr. Scot]

Now mind you, the flipside to everything just mentioned is that it's still Frank Reich deciding what schemes we run. So even if we didn't get the quarterback he most wanted, it would have been on him to try and adjust to the quarterback we got.

In other words...what an unholy mess

[Byrdman4real]

44 minutes ago, WarHeel said:

That was my board as well. I shouldn’t be better at drafting than an NFL GM but as it turns out I am. 

Same

[Bear Hands]

We have the same OL coach and 4 of the 5 starters from last season.  When it comes down to it, even the change to zone concepts shouldn't be this terrible as you still had blemishes of it last season.  It was just power run focused. And what doesn't get mentioned is that, as in modern defensive schemes, they are not mutually exclusive.  Every NFL team, scheme or not still runs zone concepts for their run plays like 40%+ of the time.  We just never deployed the super zone heavy stuff teams like the Cowboys, Titans, Rams and Vikes do.  

Like people said, man/gap assignments where the focus is just to power block seemed to work much better, but honestly, I can see why they thought they could transition to zone heavy.  Corbett and Moton seem okay, they know how to contain, not just attack.  They honestly looked FINE for stretches last night. 

The problem is that Bozeman and the LG-of-the-week are getting spanked every down and jut seem lost.  Icky is struggling mightily as a sophomore.  He's concerning me in a big way right now.  We may need to add LT back to the needs list.    

That and Bozeman's regression and lack of ability to adapt to what they're deploynig is a huge indictment on Fitt, Reich, Campen, everyone.    

[BrianS]

 

59 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

Mingo has no business being on the field ever

I disagree here.  Mingo has been showing slow progress over the year.  Receivers can tend to take time to mature into the NFL.  Mingo has been playing like a rookie.  That's ok.  The problem is our staff were needing him to be an impact rookie this year, and he's not.  We should be using him as a slot matchup nightmare, and we're still trying to make him an X or Y.

Our receiver problem this year is largely self inflicted.  We needed more speed and we didn't do enough to bring that in.  Sure, we brought in Chark who was supposed to take the top off for us . . . but he's got a history of injuries - surprise! - he's been injured most of the year.  We brought in Damiere Byrd . . . and released him.  We had Shi Smith . . . and waived him.  I mean . . . that's just about as self inflicted as you can get.  I'm not saying Byrd or Shi would have solved the problem, but it couldn't hurt to have that kind of speed on the field.  Certainly moreso than what we have now.

[Mr. Scot]

23 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

We have the same OL coach and 4 of the 5 starters from last season.  When it comes down to it, even the change to zone concepts shouldn't be this terrible as you still had blemishes of it last season.  It was just power run focused. And what doesn't get mentioned is that, as in modern defensive schemes, they are not mutually exclusive.  Every NFL team, scheme or not still runs zone concepts for their run plays like 40%+ of the time.  We just never deployed the super zone heavy stuff teams like the Cowboys, Titans, Rams and Vikes do.  

Like people said, man/gap assignments where the focus is just to power block seemed to work much better, but honestly, I can see why they thought they could transition to zone heavy.  Corbett and Moton seem okay, they know how to contain, not just attack.  They honestly looked FINE for stretches last night. 

The problem is that Bozeman and the LG-of-the-week are getting spanked every down and jut seem lost.  Icky is struggling mightily as a sophomore.  He's concerning me in a big way right now.  We may need to add LT back to the needs list.    

That and Bozeman's regression and lack of ability to adapt to what they're deploynig is a huge indictment on Fitt, Reich, Campen, everyone.    

Corbett came from McVay's system so I'd expect him to know how to work in that kind of scheme.

Moton has a really good mix of power, agility and balance so he suits pretty much anything you want to run.

It's from the center-left where the issues start.

I still think Bozeman could handle this kind of attack if he had good guard play. Plenty of great centers look like crap when they have to account for poor play beside them.

Ickey at left tackle is the most obvious mismatch. But could he handle a left guard spot in a WCO? Probably. At the very least, it's worth a shot.

But then of course, we're in the spot of looking for a left tackle again, unless Brady Christensen can handle the job. He's definitely more suited to a WCO outside spot than Ickey, so at least potentially you'd have the option of retooling the line without making major personnel changes.

Obviously though, that can't happen this season.

[Mr. Scot]

17 minutes ago, BrianS said:

 

I disagree here.  Mingo has been showing slow progress over the year.  Receivers can tend to take time to mature into the NFL.  Mingo has been playing like a rookie.  That's ok.  The problem is our staff were needing him to be an impact rookie this year, and he's not.  We should be using him as a slot matchup nightmare, and we're still trying to make him an X or Y.

Our receiver problem this year is largely self inflicted.  We needed more speed and we didn't do enough to bring that in.  Sure, we brought in Chark who was supposed to take the top off for us . . . but he's got a history of injuries - surprise! - he's been injured most of the year.  We brought in Damiere Byrd . . . and released him.  We had Shi Smith . . . and waived him.  I mean . . . that's just about as self inflicted as you can get.  I'm not saying Byrd or Shi would have solved the problem, but it couldn't hurt to have that kind of speed on the field.  Certainly moreso than what we have now.

Byrd and Smith were more what you look for in a West Coast receiver. Mind you, neither of them were great, but at least they fit the skill set.

To put it in terms most can relate to, I'd say mango is best suited for a Muhsin Muhammad type role (once he develops). We also have a Ricky Proehl type in Adam Thielen.

What we're missing is a Steve Smith.