Is Jaycee Horn pulling a "business decision McCaffrey" on us?!?

[Rocky Davis]

43 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

I will never fault a player for choosing his own body over playing through an injury or whatever. 
 

No one has any reason to doubt the severity of his injuries. Was he lying last year when he didn’t return from a broken arm?

Yeah, I am not saying anything about Horn because what the team disclosed about his previous injuries would be season ending - foot, arm.  He also isn't in any position to be making a "business decision."  He has been really good when he's healthy, but he wouldn't get max $$ because of his injury history.

He'll return at some point this season as the team has already said it wasn't season ending.  This isn't the same as the CMC situation.

[CRA]

10 hours ago, TheBigKat said:

He has enough tape out there to show he can be a lockdown but MAYBE he just doesn't want to play here?

He has been awfully slow to recover from his injuries at such a young age

Son of a former player who's also a man of questionable character https://assets.espn.go.com/nfl/news/2002/0128/1319126.html

I am starting to wonder if he's taking his sweet ole time to nurse those injuries, we don't pick up that 5th year option and he goes on to be a Saints legend lockdown CB

fun question.....best game of Horn's career that actually presents an argument he is a shutdown CB?

Horn has barely played.  And when he has, he hasn't shutdown anyone of note.  He is either "shutting down bad a WR" or is seeing bad QB play.   Is he good? Yeah.  But no one even knows what would happen if you put him on a great WR with a great QB throwing the rock.   And next year will be year 4 for him.  

I don't fault guys for getting hurt.   I think he would play of he thought it was smart and could.  But I'm also just done w/ Horn.  You need guys that can play.  He has proven not to be that for all 3 seasons. 

[aahainley]

16 minutes ago, CRA said:

fun question.....best game of Horn's career that actually presents an argument he is a shutdown CB?

Horn has barely played.  And when he has, he hasn't shutdown anyone of note.  He is either "shutting down bad a WR" or is seeing bad QB play.   Is he good? Yeah.  But no one even knows what would happen if you put him on a great WR with a great QB throwing the rock.   And next year will be year 4 for him.  

I don't fault guys for getting hurt.   I think he would play of he thought it was smart and could.  But I'm also just done w/ Horn.  You need guys that can play.  He has proven not to be that for all 3 seasons. 

Best ability is availability. 

[Jay Roosevelt]

You have to have enough game tape that teams value you in a trade. Nobody wants to trade for a guy who has missed more games than he's played.

He's just injury prone.

[mav1234]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

fun question.....best game of Horn's career that actually presents an argument he is a shutdown CB?

Horn has barely played.  And when he has, he hasn't shutdown anyone of note.  He is either "shutting down bad a WR" or is seeing bad QB play.   Is he good? Yeah.  But no one even knows what would happen if you put him on a great WR with a great QB throwing the rock.   And next year will be year 4 for him.  

I don't fault guys for getting hurt.   I think he would play of he thought it was smart and could.  But I'm also just done w/ Horn.  You need guys that can play.  He has proven not to be that for all 3 seasons. 

Yeah... What's that somewhat dumb saying? The most important skill is the ability to stay on the field...

This isn't like CMC at all, as CMC was widely considered one of the best skill players in the NFL by fans all over. Nobody has heard of Horn outside of Carolina.

[pantherclaw]

Lmao

 

[MasterAwesome]

5 hours ago, CRA said:

fun question.....best game of Horn's career that actually presents an argument he is a shutdown CB?

Horn has barely played.  And when he has, he hasn't shutdown anyone of note.  He is either "shutting down bad a WR" or is seeing bad QB play.   Is he good? Yeah.  But no one even knows what would happen if you put him on a great WR with a great QB throwing the rock.   And next year will be year 4 for him.  

I don't fault guys for getting hurt.   I think he would play of he thought it was smart and could.  But I'm also just done w/ Horn.  You need guys that can play.  He has proven not to be that for all 3 seasons. 

I don't think bad QB play precludes you from judging a CB's coverage skills.  You can always evaluate the matchup between a CB and a WR, independent of what the QB does.  If a CB gets beaten on a double move but the QB doesn't see him and instead throws a checkdown, can we not say that was bad coverage on that play?  Or if a WR has three steps on the CB but the ball is underthrown and allows the CB to make a play on it, we can still call that bad coverage right?  On the other hand, it's of course very much possible for a CB to legitimately shut down his WR even if his QB stinks.  If a CB is covering his WR step for step, what's a great QB going to do?  Throw a catchable 50/50 ball?  Then it's essentially a toss-up at that point.

I don't think the "shutdown CB" label for Horn is as murky as you're making it out to be.  I imagine there is more-or-less an objective truth to that question, which is revealed on the full game tape.  Not what's shown on our TV screens at home on our couches, or what's revealed in box scores online.  I won't pretend to know the answer to that question because I acknowledge that my perspective is limited as a fan who simply watches the weekly broadcast coverage.  But I am guessing NFL GMs probably have an idea as to whether he's fitting of that label.

[Basbear]

Players have more power these days than ever, its a legit topic. I see the star players side of things " why lose my elite traits years rushing back" for a 2-10 season. I also see if the team has them under contract.... 

It wasnt a secret about how the team allowed or even forced CMC to sit out those late games in a wasted/non-playoff season.   

[frankw]

I highly doubt that. He's a good kid. Just obviously can't shake the injury bug. Sadly still Fitterer’s best draft pick to date. But it's slim pickings.

[Peon Awesome]

NFL players have such a limited window to earn money. Basically their one shot at a big payday is their second contract, where they're not only in their prime but no longer constrained by the rookie salary structure. For Horn to sabotage that and likely sacrifice what could be in the range of $100 million just so he doesn't have to play in Carolina anymore makes zero sense. No one is going to throw a big guaranteed contract to someone who misses 50% of games in their career.

A much more logical question might be, are the Panthers being overly cautious in keeping Horn on IR during a seemingly lost year with the added benefit of depressing his 2nd contract value and keeping him fresh for a future where we might have more to play for? I don't think that's likely either but seems a thousand times more plausible than what the original post is asking.

[CRA]

5 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

I don't think bad QB play precludes you from judging a CB's coverage skills.  You can always evaluate the matchup between a CB and a WR, independent of what the QB does.  If a CB gets beaten on a double move but the QB doesn't see him and instead throws a checkdown, can we not say that was bad coverage on that play?  Or if a WR has three steps on the CB but the ball is underthrown and allows the CB to make a play on it, we can still call that bad coverage right?  On the other hand, it's of course very much possible for a CB to legitimately shut down his WR even if his QB stinks.  If a CB is covering his WR step for step, what's a great QB going to do?  Throw a catchable 50/50 ball?  Then it's essentially a toss-up at that point.

I don't think the "shutdown CB" label for Horn is as murky as you're making it out to be.  I imagine there is more-or-less an objective truth to that question, which is revealed on the full game tape.  Not what's shown on our TV screens at home on our couches, or what's revealed in box scores online.  I won't pretend to know the answer to that question because I acknowledge that my perspective is limited as a fan who simply watches the weekly broadcast coverage.  But I am guessing NFL GMs probably have an idea as to whether he's fitting of that label.

Yeah, Patrick Mahomes attacking you with Tyreek Hill is a different animal than Jimmy Clausen attacking you with Tyreek Hill.  

so I ask you, point to the game out that best makes the argument Jaycee Horn is a shutdown corner.  Because that’s not a hard proposition if he were worthy of that tag. 

Horn  just hasn’t been on the field to make the case he is a shutdown guy. Horn just hasn’t played enough football.  Simple as that.  If you anoint him a shutdown corner then the term is meaningless.  No one outside of the huddle is talking that. 

[MasterAwesome]

15 hours ago, CRA said:

Yeah, Patrick Mahomes attacking you with Tyreek Hill is a different animal than Jimmy Clausen attacking you with Tyreek Hill.  

so I ask you, point to the game out that best makes the argument Jaycee Horn is a shutdown corner.  Because that’s not a hard proposition if he were worthy of that tag. 

Horn  just hasn’t been on the field to make the case he is a shutdown guy. Horn just hasn’t played enough football.  Simple as that.  If you anoint him a shutdown corner then the term is meaningless.  No one outside of the huddle is talking that. 

Can you elaborate on that first point?  How does a CB's *coverage* of a WR depend upon which QB is throwing the ball?  If you're a CB who can stick to the WR like glue step for step on every play (which is more-or-less what a "shutdown CB" would entail), then again...what is an elite QB going to do?  Basically just throw a 50/50 ball at that point.  Maybe Mahomes gives Hill a better chance to catch that ball vs. Clausen, but coverage is coverage...it would be an amazing pitch and catch rather than an indictment of the CB's coverage.  I think you're making an intuitive argument instead of actually thinking through the rationale.

I can only assume you didn't read the second half of my post because I acknowledged that I don't know if Jaycee Horn is a shutdown corner or not...so why are you asking me to prove that he's a shutdown corner?  You want me to prove an argument I never made?  I was arguing conceptually that you can still be a shutdown corner without having played against an "elite" QB.

Also, to your very last sentence: I know you posted in the Bill Barnwell thread where he put Horn's trade value as a 1st round pick, so I don't know why you would argue that no one outside of the Huddle considers him a shutdown corner.  I didn't have access to the full article so I don't know if the actual term "shutdown corner" was used, but the OP paraphrased Barnwell's explanation as Horn "only" being worth a single 1st because of his injury history.  That kind of value certainly seems in line with what a shutdown corner would fetch.  So I think you meant to say "no one outside of the Huddle that I agree with is talking that".

[CRA]

Just now, MasterAwesome said:

Can you elaborate on that first point?  How does a CB's *coverage* of a WR depend upon which QB is throwing the ball?  If you're a CB who can stick to the WR like glue step for step on every play (which is more-or-less what a "shutdown CB" would entail), then again...what is an elite QB going to do? 

is covering Steve Smith with a prime Cam Newton throwing him the ball the same task for a corner with Jimmy Clausen throwing the ball?  

Steve Smith might be the same.   The job the corner faces isn't the same.  The plays and throws the corner is going to have to be able to defend are just flat out different.  Everyone is covered in the NFL to a degree.  They are two different assignments for the corner. 

I don't see how you want to erase the QB from the discussion.   Sort of like Tyreek Hill talks about.  Tons of dudes in the NFL can be top tier WRs.  It's about the system and who is throwing the ball. 

I mean, you could shut down Justin Jefferson if I am throwing the ball to him.  Because I won't be.  I'll be getting sacked or throwing INTs into no mans land. 

 

 

 

[MasterAwesome]

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, you could shut down Justin Jefferson if I am throwing the ball to him.  Because I won't be.  I'll be getting sacked or throwing INTs into no mans land. 

This is what appears to boil down to.  We clearly have different criteria for what "shutting down" means.  If you're at QB and Justin Jefferson is immediately running free on every play with 10+ yards of separation and the CB is getting juked out left and right but you just throw the ball into the dirt on every play, I wouldn't say the CB "shut him down".  That would be quite a silly characterization IMO.  You appear to be arguing from a Box Score perspective, the best I can tell?  Like how many catches did the CB allow?  That's why I explicitly stated in my initial post that the *tape* will shed light as to whether he's a shutdown CB or not.

Same thing as a LT vs. DE matchup.  If a LT technically doesn't allow a single sack or pressure but the QB immediately snaps the ball and scrambles right on every play and gets the ball out within 2 seconds while the LT loses literally every pass rush snap, immediately getting pancaked on his ass...I wouldn't say that the LT shut the DE down.  My assessment is similar to the PFF approach, where they evaluate every single snap of a 1-on-1 matchup (like CB vs. WR, LT vs. DE) regardless of whether it was ultimately relevant to the play or not.  It's possible that a CB could allow one catch for 11 yards all game and still end up with a 40.0 coverage grade.