According to this metric, Bryce Young is the most accurate QB in the NFL when targeting an open WR

[45catfan]

59 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I don't really disagree with much of this, but mainly because you've now arrived to my same argument lol.  Your post I quoted literally said "This says it all, no need to dive in much deeper" and now you are actually diving deeper beyond the statistic, which is what I was advocating.  It's not enough to say "hey look at this damning stat" - you've gotta evaluate what is contributing to that statistic.  Same thing you just did with Joe Burrow.  It would be foolish to go "Look at Joe Burrow...worst in the league in Y/A.  Enough said, no need to go any further than that".

The application of nuance and critical thinking seems to often be selective on these boards; people are willing to go to great depths to offer rational comprehensive analyses of other QBs, but when it comes to Bryce, it's all of a sudden extremely black and white for some reason.  So yeah, our offense clearly emphasizes the short to intermediate passing game to where we're too one-dimensional, but we can't say for sure why that is.  Sure it could be in part because the staff views Young as limited, or it could be because our o-line struggles to hold a block beyond 2 seconds, or because we seemingly only have one reliable receiver who seems to know how to run a proper route (and he's the furthest thing from a deep threat), or a number of other reasons.  

I dug deeper because you engaged in the discussion, which is completely fine, that's what this board is for.  However, the eyeball test confirms what one, two, three or more sets of data will bare based on actually watching the games.  We can dig as deep as you want, but the point remains we are a dink and dunk offense, which is going to the be a high completion percentage, low air yards/yards per attempt based on scheme.  Again the question being: is this purely scheme or does the staff not have full confidence in Bryce's ability to push the ball down field?  I've addressed this in the past regarding the Seattle game with Dalton.  The offense looked markedly different. Folks noted that Andy supposedly "asked" for those longer throws.  If that's the case and Bryce, who is our franchise QB wanted some deep shots, does anyone honestly think the staff would say no to him? 

[MasterAwesome]

21 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

I dug deeper because you engaged in the discussion, which is completely fine, that's what this board is for.  However, the eyeball test confirms what one, two, three or more sets of data will bare based on actually watching the games.  We can dig as deep as you want, but the point remains we are a dink and dunk offense, which is going to the be a high completion percentage, low air yards/yards per attempt based on scheme.  Again the question being: is this purely scheme or does the staff not have full confidence in Bryce's ability to push the ball down field?  I've addressed this in the past regarding the Seattle game with Dalton.  The offense looked markedly different. Folks noted that Andy supposedly "asked" for those longer throws.  If that's the case and Bryce, who is our franchise QB wanted some deep shots, does anyone honestly think the staff would say no to him? 

I would almost propose a different perspective on the Seattle game altogether.  To me, the Seattle game was a cautionary tale and in part affirmed that our offense isn't built for the deep pass.  Did Dalton take a few more deep shots?  Yeah sure...did he also take a hell of a lot of hits, far more than we'd be comfortable with our expensive investment rookie QB taking?  Anyone who watched the game would see that Dalton was routinely getting hit as he threw, certainly in part due to the extra fractions of a second it took to let those deep plays develop, en route to 10 QB hits for the game.  I wouldn't want Bryce taking 10 hits a game.  Dalton did an admirable job, I was genuinely very impressed with his poise and decision-making.  But no way in hell is that kind of performance sustainable over the course of a season if he's having to stand there and take 10 hits a game and is routinely under pressure.  That is exactly the type of game where I could easily see 3-4 interceptions thrown if the timing isn't absolutely perfect on those throws.  It's just a crazy small margin of error.

Also, "markedly different" offenses?  Do you just mean there were actually a few "deep" shots completed...4 to be exact, out of 58 throws?  The vast, vast majority of throws are still in that 0-15 yard range.  I guess maybe we have different criteria for what "markedly different" means but it basically looks like the same exact scheme and pass distribution, just with a few deep passes completed.  Which isn't crazy to imagine when you're talking about a QB who threw almost 60 passes.  To be clear, I like that a few more deep throws were sprinkled in there and I do want that out of Bryce.  I just think people are very much exaggerating how crazy different our offense looked with Dalton under center instead of Bryce.  Most (not all) of the difference can be explained simply by the sheer volume of passes from Dalton.

[45catfan]

Remember, this is the game where to pre-snap penalties were absurd.  The Seahawks have arguably one of the loudest venues in the League.  A lot of these longer throws were because we were WAY behind the chains.  Obviously the volume of throws is glaring, but if you look at where the some of these passes were thrown by Dalton, you can see he uses the entire field.  Bryce had exactly one throw at the boundary beyond 10 yards.  Dalton was 50% on his throws beyond 25 yards one of which was a TD.  Bryce's attempts outside the numbers beyond 15+ yards is woeful 0-4 in that Miami passing chart.  We took four shots, so it's not like they didn't dial up some longer plays at all.  Inside the numbers in that 15-20 yard range he was 3-3.  Teams see this and know they can leave guys on an island outside.  They do not fear/think Bryce will go deep outside.  Play press coverage, bring a safety down and bring the heat.  This is the blueprint to keep Bryce frazzled.  Our boundary WRs are obsolete. Bryce is not a scramble threat either. Teams have to guard Thielen out of the slot, a TE and the RB in the backfield.    All things considered, a pretty easy task.

[frankw]

I figured someone would mention Burrow as if he isn’t injured and having the worst season of his career. This thread has veered back into the usual coping mechanisms.

All of our questions can and should be answered in our next game. At home. New playcaller. #1 pick against the #2 pick. This game has to be one where despite all odds and circumstances we see Bryce Young indisputably rise to the occasion. I need to see it. I hope to see it.

[ForJimmy]

8 minutes ago, frankw said:

I figured someone would mention Burrow as if he isn’t injured and having the worst season of his career. This thread has veered back into the usual coping mechanisms.

All of our questions can and should be answered in our next game. At home. New playcaller. #1 pick against the #2 pick. This game has to be one where despite all odds and circumstances we see Bryce Young indisputably rise to the occasion. I need to see it. I hope to see it.

Yeah but it just validates @MasterAwesome’s point of taking stats at face value being foolish. I didn’t realize Dalton got hit 10 times in that Seattle game. Definitely playing with house money knowing Dalton is our backup and playing hopefully not many games this season. We also didn’t have to worry about Dalton’s development being impacted by those constant hits. It’s a good interesting debate between him and @45catfan.  Real football/analytics talk.

[frankw]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah but it just validates @MasterAwesome’s point of taking stats at face value being foolish. I didn’t realize Dalton got hit 10 times in that Seattle game. Definitely playing with house money knowing Dalton is our backup and playing hopefully not many games this season. We also didn’t have to worry about Dalton’s development being impacted by those constant hits. It’s a good interesting debate between him and @45catfan.  Real football/analytics talk.

People want something to confirm or deny their bias and especially so in football. We played that game over Newton for years. That's when you also rely on what you are seeing with your own eyes. I mean Dalton is basically a jag and expendable at this stage in his career. That game we played against him and the Saints to close the season was one of the ugliest I've ever seen. Just horrendous football.  When we signed him I audibly groaned. I thought for sure in a place like Seattle he would have looked shaky at best. But he hung in there and delivered some strikes. Same oline same weapons. And we didn’t get shut out of the scoreboard for three whole quarters.

All I ask from the #1 pick is give me something worth watching that we can build on. Then we can begin to get back to more productive conversations and stop feeding on one another.

[ForJimmy]

13 minutes ago, frankw said:

People want something to confirm or deny their bias and especially so in football. We played that game over Newton for years. That's when you also rely on what you are seeing with your own eyes. I mean Dalton is basically a jag and expendable at this stage in his career. That game we played against him and the Saints to close the season was one of the ugliest I've ever seen. Just horrendous football.  When we signed him I audibly groaned. I thought for sure in a place like Seattle he would have looked shaky at best. But he hung in there and delivered some strikes. Same oline same weapons. And we didn’t get shut out of the scoreboard for three whole quarters.

All I ask from the #1 pick is give me something worth watching that we can build on. Then we can begin to get back to more productive conversations and stop feeding on one another.

The whole point was the get those 4 more deep shots do you want your rookie QB taking all those extra hits all season. I mean we still lost that Seattle game. Blaming the QB is easy and yes they shoulder most of the responsibility. Other questions are why did our offense go away from the up tempo no huddle quick strikes that led us to two touchdowns? Why are never running slants? Why aren’t we running any PA bootlegs to offset the terrible OG play? How did we expect our young offense to win this game when our defense allowed 42 points? 
It’s just a complete poo show and it makes it difficult to see where the problems really are. It’s probably a combination of everything. 

[stratocatter]

Yes Dalton took a ton of hits and no that is not sustainable for him or for little man. Was getting that, at the time. It was rough. 

I am a person who has seen some football. I was watching the Heidi game as it happened. 9 or ten years old. The NFL Championship, you know like Green Bay and Vince Lombardi, Hank Stram, AFL. My dad was a high school football coach at the time of my birth, and he left it to make money now that he was starting a family. I go back. And this, what we are seeing them do from the owner on down, it does not make any sense. It is wrong headed. I resent that this is what being a loyal Panthers fan for nearly 30 years gets me from the current ownership. They SUCK. The team, and the owners. 

I don’t know how anyone is supposed to understand any of what they are doing when the coach says there’s all this new offense and it can’t be shown, this quarterback is so far ahead of the game that he is getting ALL the plays installed. He can handle it!

So okay, take him at his word. He’s a pro.

Except when the time comes to show something, they go into the slackest least ambitious shell of something…. I can’t really describe it as a system. Throw a lot of sideways  15 yard passes to nowhere. Short yardage comes up and now what? In comes Dalton to execute the latest greatest strategery.  It is inexplicable. I had no idea what we were watching or what Reich thought he was accomplishing. Besides pissing most people off. And it hasn’t progressed to poo. Nice that the quarterback gets praise for fitting a ball into a tight window three yards away. I know that is an exaggeration but this sucks and I am frustrated. That is literally the season highlight on offense.