Bryce bashing needs to stop

[Mr Mojo Risin]

58 minutes ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Because that was what was force fed to us by analysts,  the team, and certain fans from the draft till now. Lets be real, its not people on this forum that need to be talked down, the experts are supposed to know more than us technically and should be giving more incite on why bryce isnt playing up to his draft status. 

Ok but at the end of the day what's that have to do with Bryce? Was it Bryce Young saying those things? That's what I'm getting at. Fans want to take it out on Bryce and hold that against him when none of that garbage was his fault. The anger is misplaced when it comes to where he's at in his development. It sucks to have to have patience because all we've done is lose the last 5 years with nothing to look forward too. It's definitely worrisome that we are 0-5 probably 0-6 going into the bye, but that speaks more to the coaching staff than it does to our undersized rookie QB.

There are plenty of examples of young QBs struggling early, even former #1 overall picks. There are examples of young QBs balling out early even former #1 overall picks. No two situations are the same and unfortunately this offense just isn't the best to drop a rookie #1 pick into it and expect instant success. Oline has struggled, no running game, and historically slow WRs not getting much separation. Doesn't sound like we are setting him up for success. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Mr Mojo Risin

[Varking]

57 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Ok but at the end of the day what's that have to do with Bryce? Was it Bryce Young saying those things? That's what I'm getting at. Fans want to take it out on Bryce and hold that against him when none of that garbage was his fault. The anger is misplaced when it comes to where he's at in his development. It sucks to have to have patience because all we've done is lose the last 5 years with nothing to look forward too. It's definitely worrisome that we are 0-5 probably 0-6 going into the bye, but that speaks more to the coaching staff than it does to our undersized rookie QB.

There are plenty of examples of young QBs struggling early, even former #1 overall picks. There are examples of young QBs balling out early even former #1 overall picks. No two situations are the same and unfortunately this offense just isn't the best to drop a rookie #1 pick into it and expect instant success. Oline has struggled, no running game, and historically slow WRs not getting much separation. Doesn't sound like we are setting him up for success. 

The crazy expectations come from the camp stories about him and draft hype and going to a team that won 7 games last year, which is not normal for the team getting the first overall pick. Both PFF and ESPN have him rated as the worst of the 3 first round QBs and among the worst of all the first round rookies as a whole. So it’s not just fans here pointing out the poor play. He made progress last week once the game got out of hand, he was 2 of 14 throwing the ball when pressured, so let’s see him make some progress there each week and start getting us in games earlier so it doesn’t look like people have to fight over what counts as garbage time. 
 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-grading-all-first-round-picks-week-5-2023-nfl-season

 

[KSpan]

1 hour ago, top dawg said:

I haven't moved any goalposts and I stick by my statement. 

The fact that you don't seem to understand that most rookie QBs suck and are below average their rookie season is telling. 

I haven't piled on anyone. That's some b.s. narrative that you made up. It's just not my style. I say what I have to say, and I do so generally after much time. The only person that I even made an early assessment on was Mike Shula, and I still didn't pile on him.

As far as any other Panthers QB, Baker and Darnold included, show me anywhere where I just piled on them. Like I said, it's simply not my style. Even still, there's a difference between "piling on" a seasoned vet who already has a substantial body of work and a rookie. I may criticise, with substance to back it up, but I'm not going to just throw out general comments, or come to obviously premature decisions. Like I said, most analysts have said the same thing. Even the guy who pointed out that there were concerns about the beginning of Bryce's early career, in the thread that I started, said that it's way too early to draw any conclusions (and he isn't even an exclusive Panthers fan, if he's one at all). 

For the record, I did use "probably," but you conveniently overlooked that fact, and, secondly, this thread isn't about some decidedly innocuous statement, whether you believe it's "ridiculous" or not, it's about the fact that a rookie with less than a handful of games has essentially been labeled a bust---a lost cause, so much so that people are piling on him, regardless of his four game career, and regardless of the context. That's the real issue here, and all the other stuff is just a diversion. 

Your claim was absurd, you got called out on it, and now you're backpedaling with a 'probably' equivalent of 'it was just a prank, bro'... take the L and move on.

Also, I said here and other places from day 1 that rookie QBs suck and to not expect too much, so your comment is inapplicable to me. Understanding that a rookie can suck does not mean you can't also assess play and say, 'Yup, he sucks so far' if that's what is happening, and it IS what's happening. Like stocks though, past performance of a rookie is no guarantee of future returns, and never have I said that Bryce will suck forever. You can take the L on this point here as well.

The drama all around is silly, over-reactive comments like yours on all ends of the spectrum. The reality is that the team is 0-5 and playing and operating at relegation level, Bryce has looked like a lost high school QB most of the season, Reich looks like the middling coach he always was in Indy, and there are still another 12 games to go this season to see if any of that changes. Only time will tell what happens from here.

[top dawg]

17 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Your claim was absurd, you got called out on it, and now you're backpedaling with a 'probably' equivalent of 'it was just a prank, bro'... take the L and move on.

Also, I said here and other places from day 1 that rookie QBs suck and to not expect too much, so your comment is inapplicable to me. Understanding that a rookie can suck does not mean you can't also assess play and say, 'Yup, he sucks so far' if that's what is happening, and it IS what's happening. Like stocks though, past performance of a rookie is no guarantee of future returns, and never have I said that Bryce will suck forever. You can take the L on this point here as well.

The drama all around is silly, over-reactive comments like yours on all ends of the spectrum. The reality is that the team is 0-5 and playing and operating at relegation level, Bryce has looked like a lost high school QB most of the season, Reich looks like the middling coach he always was in Indy, and there are still another 12 games to go this season to see if any of that changes. Only time will tell what happens from here.

My claim isn't absurd. The fact that you're still trying to defend your unsubstantiated response is absurd. Furthermore, you keep saying things like "back pedaling" and "moving goalposts" which I have not done. I said it and I own it, and I believe it's probably true. Plain and simple.

Edited October 14, 2023 by top dawg

[WUnderhill]

12 hours ago, frankw said:

That happens with every QB class in every draft. People pick a prospect and head to their respective corners. Will Levis got more hate from fans than anyone in the class. Why aren't you drumming up sympathy for him? Anyways fans have no impact on a players draft stock. The media gave CJ Stroud the Cam Newton treatment. He knew it too. For the most part Bryce Young was handled with kid gloves from the media. The fact that you perceive throwing at the combine for a QB under consideration for the top pick to be only for "stans" whatever the hell that means tells me you have your own agenda.

What is your definition of "having his back"? I'm guessing it's pretending everything is going well like a mindless drone. Sorry bud the world doesn't work that way. I want him to succeed as much as anyone I don't want my local team to be the joke of the league. If he and the rest of the team play like poo until the game is lost that's what I'm going to call it.

Ok so you admit Bryce Young got a lot of hate pre draft. Will Levis and CJ Stroud are not on this team.

Not throwing at the combine is nothing new for QBs under consideration for the top pick. I recall Andrew Luck not throwing just for one example. But sure, I’m the one with the agenda.

And lastly, there’s a grand canyon of middle ground between “pretending everything is going well” and what’s been going on around here. Don’t pull a hammy jumping to those conclusions, “bud”. Don’t be one of those guys.

[WUnderhill]

10 hours ago, Varking said:

The crazy expectations come from the camp stories about him and draft hype and going to a team that won 7 games last year, which is not normal for the team getting the first overall pick. Both PFF and ESPN have him rated as the worst of the 3 first round QBs and among the worst of all the first round rookies as a whole. So it’s not just fans here pointing out the poor play. He made progress last week once the game got out of hand, he was 2 of 14 throwing the ball when pressured, so let’s see him make some progress there each week and start getting us in games earlier so it doesn’t look like people have to fight over what counts as garbage time. 
 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-grading-all-first-round-picks-week-5-2023-nfl-season

 

You like to qualify every positive but never consider that we have the slowest WRs in the NFL paired with the worst OL and no run game. We’re on like our 4th string guards. We’re pulling in guys off the street. And to top it off our t10 LT has looked like poo, our top paid RT has been nothing to write home about, and the center has looked worse than last year as well. This is flat out a worse team than the 7 win team from last year at literally every position EXCEPT QB and Safety, and all you want to do is drag the rookie QB.

If you had super high expectations from camp fluff pieces, that’s on you. That happens literally every off season for every team.

I had higher expectations than what we’ve seen on the field. But I said before the season started it would be a positive for the team if they were able to get even 2 wins before the bye. And that’s with me thinking we had a decent OL and at least serviceable receiving corps.

The offense has been a poo show, but if there’s anybody I’m giving a pass to it’s the rookie QB being asked to throw 20 screens a game behind the worst OL in football with zero run game.

[kungfoodude]

22 hours ago, top dawg said:

There needs to be a bash Bryce thread for those that are impatient with letting a rookie QB actually develop. Bryce has been bashed more in six months here probably than Teddy, Phillip, Sam and Baker put together. 

I realize that some of you had otherworldly expectations, but dial them back and be realistic for once. This was never going to be a sprint. Bryce is not the origin of the Panthers' ills. Let's sit back and watch how he develops and give him a fair look. 

It's the cumulative effect of the post-Cam doldrums. I can imagine that the Browns fans felt like this over the 20 year period of QB purgatory(which may not be over admittedly).

[frankw]

27 minutes ago, WUnderhill said:

Ok so you admit Bryce Young got a lot of hate pre draft. Will Levis and CJ Stroud are not on this team.

Not throwing at the combine is nothing new for QBs under consideration for the top pick. I recall Andrew Luck not throwing just for one example. But sure, I’m the one with the agenda.

And lastly, there’s a grand canyon of middle ground between “pretending everything is going well” and what’s been going on around here. Don’t pull a hammy jumping to those conclusions, “bud”. Don’t be one of those guys.

There were a handful of trolls who did not like him at all just as there are now but for the most part it was fans discussing his pros and cons like every other prospect. I think you are conflating people expressing valid concerns that have already come up again barely a quarter way through the season with hate. I don't like it. You don't like it. But it's there and it's up to Bryce to change the channel and prove he belongs in this league.

Andrew Luck? The guy who was the biggest can't miss prospect in the last 20 years? That's the comparison we're landing on here to excuse not throwing at the combine?

We both know what's been "going on here" sir. We traded the farm for a QB we were told was the most pro ready and cerebral of the top 3 by a significant margin. That hasn't come to fruition at all for several reasons. But fair or not it means the Panthers discussion is going to be bitter at best. The Panthers decision makers made their own bed. The results the fans have to live with. And in the meantime it's going to remain ugly.

Anywho hopefully we can at least make a game of it against the Dolphins. Enjoy it if you're watching.

[Varking]

39 minutes ago, WUnderhill said:

You like to qualify every positive but never consider that we have the slowest WRs in the NFL paired with the worst OL and no run game. We’re on like our 4th string guards. We’re pulling in guys off the street. And to top it off our t10 LT has looked like poo, our top paid RT has been nothing to write home about, and the center has looked worse than last year as well. This is flat out a worse team than the 7 win team from last year at literally every position EXCEPT QB and Safety, and all you want to do is drag the rookie QB.

If you had super high expectations from camp fluff pieces, that’s on you. That happens literally every off season for every team.

I had higher expectations than what we’ve seen on the field. But I said before the season started it would be a positive for the team if they were able to get even 2 wins before the bye. And that’s with me thinking we had a decent OL and at least serviceable receiving corps.

The offense has been a poo show, but if there’s anybody I’m giving a pass to it’s the rookie QB being asked to throw 20 screens a game behind the worst OL in football with zero run game.

Where have I unnecessarily dragged Bryce? Provide examples. Since the season started I haven’t called him a bust one time. 

[WUnderhill]

3 minutes ago, frankw said:

There were a handful of trolls who did not like him at all just as there are now but for the most part it was fans discussing his pros and cons like every other prospect. I think you are conflating people expressing valid concerns that have already come up again barely a quarter way through the season with hate. I don't like it. You don't like it. But it's there and it's up to Bryce to change the channel and prove he belongs in this league.

Andrew Luck? The guy who was the biggest can't miss prospect in the last 20 years? That's the comparison we're landing on here to excuse not throwing at the combine?

We both know what's been "going on here" sir. We traded the farm for a QB we were told was the most pro ready and cerebral of the top 3 by a significant margin. That hasn't come to fruition at all for several reasons. But fair or not it means the Panthers discussion is going to be bitter at best. The Panthers decision makers made their own bed. The results the fans have to live with. And in the meantime it's going to remain ugly.

Anywho hopefully we can at least make a game of it against the Dolphins. Enjoy it if you're watching.

The only point I was making was that Bryce Young is not the first and will not be the last top QB to not throw at the combine. It’s a matter of what their agent advises, risk/reward, etc. and clearly teams don’t care. Taking it to mean anything about the player is an exercise in futility.

https://x.com/AdamSchefter/status/968533844159811584?s=20
 

That’s from 2018, all sorts of different QBs on there. Been more since then. 

I’ve seen plenty of flashes of what made him the #1 overall pick. I think those that don’t are really just hyper focused on anything negative they can find. “Cerebral” don’t mean poo if none of your WRs are open, you’ve got free rushers up the middle, your RT is in your lap, and the RDE is on your back shoulder. I think we’ll see a lot of “progress” post bye that will magically coincide with getting the team’s top guard back (unless he’s turned into a steaming pile of hot garbage like Ikey) and an easier schedule.

[WUnderhill]

4 minutes ago, Varking said:

Where have I unnecessarily dragged Bryce? Provide examples. Since the season started I haven’t called him a bust one time. 

This thread is titled “Bryce bashing needs to stop” and you’re taking the opposing stance. Nobody has time to check everybody’s post history. If you’re going to defend the Bryce bashing, you get lumped in with everybody else.

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, frankw said:

There were a handful of trolls who did not like him at all just as there are now but for the most part it was fans discussing his pros and cons like every other prospect. I think you are conflating people expressing valid concerns that have already come up again barely a quarter way through the season with hate. I don't like it. You don't like it. But it's there and it's up to Bryce to change the channel and prove he belongs in this league.

Andrew Luck? The guy who was the biggest can't miss prospect in the last 20 years? That's the comparison we're landing on here to excuse not throwing at the combine?

We both know what's been "going on here" sir. We traded the farm for a QB we were told was the most pro ready and cerebral of the top 3 by a significant margin. That hasn't come to fruition at all for several reasons. But fair or not it means the Panthers discussion is going to be bitter at best. The Panthers decision makers made their own bed. The results the fans have to live with. And in the meantime it's going to remain ugly.

Anywho hopefully we can at least make a game of it against the Dolphins. Enjoy it if you're watching.

Not throwing isn’t anything that crazy. Many busts and good QBs didn’t. Burrow, Stafford, Matt Ryan, Teddy, Manziel, Derek Carr, Bradford, RG3, Tannehill, The Golden Calf of Bristol, Bradford, Quinn, Jamarcus, Gabbert, Kyler Murray etc (I’m pulling this from Reddit so it could be off). Scouts get a better look up close at the Pro Days.
My biggest concern was Young only weighing in and then not weighing in on his Pro Day when he was throwing. It gave some validity to his putting on some water weight just for the combine. Simply stepping on a scale during his Pro Day could have easily settled those concerns. Plus Stroud, AR, and Levis have cannons. Throwing behind them would do nothing but hurt his stock. 

[Varking]

12 minutes ago, WUnderhill said:

This thread is titled “Bryce bashing needs to stop” and you’re taking the opposing stance. Nobody has time to check everybody’s post history. If you’re going to defend the Bryce bashing, you get lumped in with everybody else.

Cool I just wanted to make sure you didn’t know what you were talking about and just lumping me in with others. Thank you for confirming. 

[WUnderhill]

7 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Not throwing isn’t anything that crazy. Many busts and good QBs didn’t. Burrow, Stafford, Matt Ryan, Teddy, Manziel, Derek Carr, Bradford, RG3, Tannehill, The Golden Calf of Bristol, Bradford, Quinn, Jamarcus, Gabbert, Kyler Murray etc (I’m pulling this from Reddit so it could be off). Scouts get a better look up close at the Pro Days.
My biggest concern was Young only weighing in and then not weighing in on his Pro Day when he was throwing. It gave some validity to his putting on some water weight just for the combine. Simply stepping on a scale during his Pro Day could have easily settled those concerns. Plus Stroud, AR, and Levis have cannons. Throwing behind them would do nothing but hurt his stock. 

It’s honestly wild to think an NFL team with their own doctors, scouts, full medical staff, etc. would be duped by a player drinking water before the combine. It’s ridiculous. That boy had a full medical evaluation. They saw his breakfast as it was digesting in his stomach. They traded up to stake their careers on a player. They had an unfathomable amount of information more than we have access to. And people think they didn’t know his weight? If they wanted to they would put him on a scale at the dinner table. But they didn’t need to because they had the information. I can’t believe we’re still talking about this.