Too little Too late firing Crossman. April has been nabbed

[CRA]

things have gotten better with meeks and davidson.

see that is my thing......

Look at the RBs and OL Davidson had vs. the end of Henning's days. To me....it was just improved talent. Playcalling under Davidson hasn't been impressive at all.....the talent has. Davidson can call the same eight plays on repeat with the entire free world knowing what is coming.....and these guys hit homeruns.

Meeks has had one year w/ a pretty talented D. Trgo had some pretty good years also whether or not people want to admit it when he had to cast to run his D.

[panthers55]

read my last post again. Yeah, he sucked and needed to be fired.......there are still other problems that exist on special teams and a new coach doesn't change that.

Funny how under Scott Obrien we were always in the top 10 and when he leaves we bring in Crossman, we are suddenly in the bottom of the league. Wait and see if we bring in someone good that suddenly we will be top 10 again. Anyone who doesn't recognize that coaching really does matter and that routinely coaches come in and substantially improve a team or unit with essentially the same guys aren't paying attention. It happens all the time.

So yeah a coach can come in and fix problems and change everything in as little as one year.

[CRA]

Wow just wow. Are you drunk posting again?? Crossman is awful and frankly whoever they get will improve special teams next year.

Talk about backing the wrong pony. You routinely slam a head coach who is well regarded around the league and some believe is a top 5 coach, and you defend a ST coach who routinely has units in the bottom 5 of the league. At least try and be in the ballpark.

pretty sure I never said Crossman wasn't horrible. I am just saying Crossman is only part of the problem. The other part still needs to be fixed.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that......a very good coach isn't going to get the same results from Nick Goings, Gamble , Mark Jones, etc., .........that some average ST coach would get from talent comparable to a Bates/Smitty.

[CRA]

I don't know if you've noticed, but ST'ers are new guys who aren't good enough to start, but are backups and have to do more than just sit on the bench to be on the team.

It's probably the one aspect of a football team that's close to 100% reflective of the coaching. Sure, to have a #1 unit you need a pretty good return man, a head hunter/leader on coverage, super gunner.. etc.

But come on, we're not even close to worrying about that. We're just worried about covering kicks and setting up a few blocks so we're not a freaking embarrassment.

No, to have a pretty good unit you need that. Carolina has pretty much ignored that aspect of the team for seasons.

[panthers55]

see that is my thing......

Look at the RBs and OL Davidson had vs. the end of Henning's days. To me....it was just improved talent. Playcalling under Davidson hasn't been impressive at all.....the talent has. Davidson can call the same eight plays on repeat with the entire free world knowing what is coming.....and these guys hit homeruns.

Meeks has had one year w/ a pretty talented D. Trgo had some pretty good years also whether or not people want to admit it when he had to cast to run his D.

Wrong again. Look at last year. On defense we were ranked 16th against the pass in 2008. Meeks comes in who is recognized as a defensive back specialist and we move all the way up to 4th against a more difficult schedule with better passing teams. Look at our roster in the secondary. For the most part we had the same guys. What made the difference? Getting more out of what you already have, not getting better players. Yeah he had some good years but that is not the point. What we are saying is that you can take the same talent level and do a better job of coaching and substantially increas their effectiveness.

[blackcatgrowl]

God our FO/HC sucks.

Since 2005, never a more accurate thing has been said.

Hurney/Fox did a great job finding some talent in '02-'04, but man have they been laying eggs since. The only really great things they've done in recent years was Jonathan Stewart and Jon Beason.

And they have mortgaged our draft in the process too. Will the Panthers ever see a 1st round pick again?

[CRA]

Wrong again. Look at last year. On defense we were ranked 16th against the pass in 2008. Meeks comes in who is recognized as a defensive back specialist and we move all the way up to 4th against a more difficult schedule with better passing teams. Look at our roster in the secondary. For the most part we had the same guys. What made the difference? Getting more out of what you already have, not getting better players. Yeah he had some good years but that is not the point. What we are saying is that you can take the same talent level and do a better job of coaching and substantially increas their effectiveness.

wrong about what? I didn't say Trgo did better his last year.....I said Trgo had some pretty impresive units in Carolina when he had the pieces to run it. He did. He had coached some better squads than Meeks had this year. Try again.

Davidson didn't take the same talent and coach it up. The talent was the difference. Fox still has the same thumb pressed on everything.

The D was pretty impressive the 1st half of 08 until teams figured out how horrible Godfrey and Lucas were and exploited it.

[panthers55]

pretty sure I never said Crossman wasn't horrible. I am just saying Crossman is only part of the problem. The other part still needs to be fixed.

I don't see what is so hard to grasp about that......a very good coach isn't going to get the same results from Nick Goings, Gamble , Mark Jones, etc., .........that some average ST coach would get from talent comparable to a Bates/Smitty.

Have you seen Smitty on the times when he has been back catching punts the past few years since Crossman took over. Do you think he suddenly lost all his talent? Why try and spread the blame to other folks when there is an obvious elephant in the room? You really do like to argue even when you don't have a case to be made.

[rayzor]

see that is my thing......

Look at the RBs and OL Davidson had vs. the end of Henning's days. To me....it was just improved talent. Playcalling under Davidson hasn't been impressive at all.....the talent has. Davidson can call the same eight plays on repeat with the entire free world knowing what is coming.....and these guys hit homeruns.

Meeks has had one year w/ a pretty talented D. Trgo had some pretty good years also whether or not people want to admit it when he had to cast to run his D.

you didn't notice the opening up of the playbook when matt started getting the hang of it? the problem with the offense was most likely the guy under center being too predictable and limited as to what he could do. i'm sure we are going to see a lot more out of the offense with moore given an offseason as the starter. the offense was built around jake and the running game. if it's build around matt and the running game you are going to see a more creative offense. of course that all remains to be seen but i think this is the case.

now meeks....what is different personnel-wise except that trgo got to work with a healthier group of players in '08? why was it that thomas davis was having a career year? how was it that we had gotten to a point where the defense the last 5 weeks of the year was taking the ball away an average of once every 18.6 plays compared to the league average of one every 36.7 plays? what about opponents scoring? they were giving up 11.5 points per game from week 12-17 this year. last year in that time frame they were giving up 29 points per game. how many different groups of starters did meeks use during the season? 14 different starting lineups. no way would i want trgo in that situation.

no matter how you look at it...meeks >>>>>> trgo.

[panthers55]

wrong about what? I didn't say Trgo did better his last year.....I said Trgo had some pretty impresive units in Carolina when he had the pieces to run it. He did. He had coached some better squads than Meeks had this year. Try again.

Davidson didn't take the same talent and coach it up. The talent was the difference. Fox still has the same thumb pressed on everything.

The D was pretty impressive the 1st half of 08 until teams figured out how horrible Godfrey and Lucas were and exploited it.

You lost the argument about Crossman and are losing about meeks so you bring in a red herring saying trgo was good in years past and now threw davidson in for good measure. Again stick to the argument. You said Crossman didn't have the talent and it wasn't his fault. I said that his coaching is the problem and there are plenty of examples of coaches taking the same talent as in previous years and getting more out of them. I also said that would happen with whoever we get on special teams. Stop trying to kitchen sink to red herrings to salvage what is aobvious a losing argument with nothing to back it up.

[Lumps]

Crossman needed to go, simple as that. It was not a smart move to get rid of him, any coach with a brain would have... what would have been half way smart is doing it and then signing April which the Panthers once again, fail to muster up the sense to do.

[CRA]

Have you seen Smitty on the times when he has been back catching punts the past few years since Crossman took over. Do you think he suddenly lost all his talent? Why try and spread the blame to other folks when there is an obvious elephant in the room? You really do like to argue even when you don't have a case to be made.

i think it the simple fact he returned 1 in 08, 2 in 07....i think pretty much explains it. Give a guy like that consistant reps and he would break huge runs......

Crossman is the elephant....he deserves to be fired. My only point in there is more steps to take and that isn't an automatic fix. I don't get a giddy and happy of a coach firing thinking it solves problems.

I said the same thing when Meeks came in. 1 year of Meeks and people now want to act that everything is peachy.....Fox has his thumb print on everything. Trgo has some impressive years in a vaccum. Fox's pros are also his cons.....and I expect the Meeks D to see the same ups and downs as Trgos did.

[Lumps]

It's never one person's fault, they would have to kick the ball themselves, catch it themselves and coach themselves, obviously impossible. When someone is blamed its because they are the main problem, not because its all their fault.

Delhomme was the problem with our offense. Crossman was the problem with special teams. It's when you take out that SINGLE guy and improve ten fold that they are labeled the problem.

[Claws]

Simmer down everybody....simmer down.

Jake is gonna take over the "Special" Teams coaching vacancy.

I mean....he is "Special"....right?

Seems like a perfectly logical Fox & Co. move!

:smilielol5::smilielol5: