Bryce could be a future cautionary tale...

[Waldo]

4 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Coach Dave didn't have him prepared.  Then again is was a new offense for the Saints. 

Anyways, that's not even nearly as bad as our defense was. 

Absolutely he didn't have anyone prepared. That's on him and his coaches including Evero. 

I won't be watching the 22 but I'm interested in why Evero regressed. Burns had 4 solo tackles yesterday for the Gaints and nothing else, it's not about him me thinks. 

[micnificent28]

27 minutes ago, Captroop said:

I was just having this conversation yesterday at BHAWK Distillery (awesome btw!) after checking out mid-third quarter.

Bryce is absolutely going to be a cautionary tale. Bryce Young being taken #1 overall is the story of people thinking too much for their own good, and data doesn't always tell the whole story.

Picking NFL talent is extremely risky, so people who are in the position of making those calls like to wrap themselves in some sort of security blanket to try to add structure, logic, and reproducibility to something that is inherently chaotic. Guys who looked like sure-fire hits have flopped. And guys who were written off and drafted Mr. Irrelevant have led their teams to the Super Bowl. It's a gamble. It's a woozle. It's a wozzle.

No one knows what's actually going to make a successful NFL pro.

So what do the people in charge of picking NFL talent do? It varies from year to year. But right now, it seems like the answer is:

Analytics!

Let's take every measurable about a prospect. Let's take every characteristic. Every personality trait. And let's turn it into data. Plug it all into a computer. Do a rain dance and ejaculate on the motherboard, and hey presto! You've got a "formula" for picking NFL talent.

Except you can't project NFL talent based on "data." There are too many immeasurables. Too many unquantifiable characteristics. Too many exigent circumstances surrounding players, teams, chemistry, coaching, and on and on and on.

 

Bryce Young is the product of people thinking too much for their own good. And unfortunately, we were the fanbase that happened to be picking at #1 when we found the limits of "Analytics."

After Bryce Young, people will say, "Hey, the computer said that this smurf is the best player in the draft," and someone else will rightly say, "Let me use my eyes and common sense. Hmm. No. He's clearly a smurf. Let's pick the guy who actually looks like an NFL player, data be damned."

Agreed. It's a crap shoot. No matter who you draft there is a chance at failure and a chance at success. It's a gamble... But my logic to what I would always do is gamble on plus athletes. Give me what you can teach and we will figure out the stuff that is coachable on the practice field. Arm strength height speed can't be improved on.

Who cares if your smart if you can't take advantage of said smartness with your limited tools. If it were that simple hell put Canales in there at QB because nobody knows the offense better than him. Football games are won by 2/3rds by the Jimmy's and the joes. Who ever has the better players can make more mistakes and have a better chance at making up for those mistakes.

Do I believe Bryce can manage a game and throw less picks absolutely.. but you get him behind on script and his limited ability you force him to have to will you back into games he is going to make mistakes. He doesn't have the physical ability to be one of those 400 yards a game guys.

[pantherclaw]

7 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Absolutely he didn't have anyone prepared. That's on him and his coaches including Evero. 

I won't be watching the 22 but I'm interested in why Evero regressed. Burns had 4 solo tackles yesterday for the Gaints and nothing else, it's not about him me thinks. 

Our defensive line was only half a defensive line and that was before brown went down. 

[Green-Ghost]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

Dart just set a SEC record for 24 straight completions and his qb rating is off the charts (they have not played anyone MTSU and Furman)--has always been mobile enough and has always completed over 60%--I think college prospects are considered accurate around 70%, fwiw).  His two games, however, are eye opening.  47 completions in 54 attempts.  Nearly 400 yards per game.  Great start.  While I see the top 3 QBs as Ewers, Beck, and maybe Sanders (I have reasons for some red flags with Sanders), I see a second wave of QBs who could rise into the first round and even the best QB conversation.  Any of these four could easily rise, if not all of them:  Milroe (ALA) Mussmeier (LSU) and Allar (Penn St.) 

The quality of the program can elevate a QB and if you play for Georgia or Alabama, that should factor in as a negative.  Ole Miss is ranked pretty high, so I will watch Dart closely against equal or better opponents.  He could be the real deal, however, having played at USC and then three years under Kiffin.  Corral was under Kiffin too, so I wonder if he is able to get the most out of talent that was not considered NFL caliber-but every situation is different.

I totally agree. The quality of the school is looked at as a factor as to the talent of any given athlete.  The reason I bring up the fact that I am an Ole Miss graduate is because I have watched this team since my college days in 1978.

I have seen two coaches that seem to make a major difference in the skill of the football team: Tommy, Tubberville and Lane Kiffin. It can be argued that lane is a loose cannon. However, you cannot argue with the fact that he was the first coach to give Ole Miss a 10 win season. Not just once but twice.
 

there have been several talented quarterbacks that played for Ole Miss.  The best quarterback to this point in my opinion is Eli Manning.  Eli to this point is the only Ole Miss quarterback that I have seen that did not have an apparent mental meltdown when they went into the NFL.
 

Chad Kelly had major accuracy and talent when he played for Ole Miss. He is the only quarterback that I know who defeated Alabama twice however, when he went into the NFL, he ruined his career by having some issues today, he plays for the Canadian football league I thought he was done with football completely. 

Matt Corral… he is another former Ole Miss quarterback, who was loaded with talent. However, the Panthers have seen firsthand Matt Carell’s NFL breakdown.

That being said, I do have some faith in Jacxson Dart.  Jaxson played with Lane Kiffin at USC just before Lane Kiffin was fired. Jaxson entered the transfer portal to play at Ole Miss, apparently wanting to play for his former coach.

if Jaxson continues to win games against opponents, such as Alabama and even Georgia, I’m sure his draft value will go up.  If not, he might be a sleeper in the draft who has hidden ability.  He might be the perfect quarterback for an NFL team who is  in the middle of the draft.

[MHS831]

3 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

there are plenty of prospects this year if we have to move on, I dont believe the narrative that this class isnt good.  It seems pretty deep to me

So do I.  LSU, Oregon (another shorty, but more like Tua--left handed), PSU, Bama, Ole Miss, Texas, Colorado, UGa--and I am missing a few--all could step up this year.  Right now?  I have 3 first round locks (unless something changes) and I think we could have five or six.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

3 hours ago, MRenshaw said:

So you think Bryce is dogsh*t? That's very surprising to hear from one of the most diehard and consistent Bryce supporters. What made you change your mind?

There's nothing die hard about my support for Bryce. It's a thing called logic. An undersized rookie QB was in an impossible situation last year. He also happened to play for my favorite team. Look around the league and how teams surround their young QBs with playmakers. The Bears, Texans, Bengals, Titans, Jaguars are all examples of how to build around your QB. The Panthers are the only ones to take weapons away from theirs. Also the scheme was old and outdated and changed multiple times. With a better supporting cast and a better scheme there was reason to believe Young could at least be a decent QB. Unfortunately he isn't and now we're all fuged for yet another season if that gets you bozos off then have at it, enjoy your Sundays!

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

There's nothing die hard about my support for Bryce. It's a thing called logic. An undersized rookie QB was in an impossible situation last year. He also happened to play for my favorite team. Look around the league and how teams surround their young QBs with playmakers. The Bears, Texans, Bengals, Titans, Jaguars are all examples of how to build around your QB. The Panthers are the only ones to take weapons away from theirs. Also the scheme was old and outdated and changed multiple times. With a better supporting cast and a better scheme there was reason to believe Young could at least be a decent QB. Unfortunately he isn't and now we're all fuged for yet another season if that gets you bozos off then have at it, enjoy your Sundays!

so odd

[SOJA]

The only cautionary tale I'm taking for Bryce is if/when we have the number one overall pick this year and there isn't an undisputed sure fire guy to take at one. Do exactly what Chicago did and trade out of the pick and get future assets. Bryce is not good but this team DESPERATELY needs talent at almost every single position. 

Stop trying to be 'just one guy' away. We do this every year. Just accept we are bad and build up slowly by taking literal BPA and every trade down possible. 

[MRenshaw]

2 minutes ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

There's nothing die hard about my support for Bryce. It's a thing called logic. An undersized rookie QB was in an impossible situation last year. He also happened to play for my favorite team. Look around the league and how teams surround their young QBs with playmakers. The Bears, Texans, Bengals, Titans, Jaguars are all examples of how to build around your QB. The Panthers are the only ones to take weapons away from theirs. Also the scheme was old and outdated and changed multiple times. With a better supporting cast and a better scheme there was reason to believe Young could at least be a decent QB. Unfortunately he isn't and now we're all fuged for yet another season if that gets you bozos off then have at it, enjoy your Sundays!

It's nice that you brought up the Texans because it was a team in a worse situation than ours. Despite the Texans having the worst receiving corps going into the 2023 season, Stroud was able to elevate the offense and make chicken salad out of chicken poo. This is what a high draft pick at QB should be able and is expected to do, instead of being coddled and protected with all kinds of excuses.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

8 minutes ago, MRenshaw said:

It's nice that you brought up the Texans because it was a team in a worse situation than ours. Despite the Texans having the worst receiving corps going into the 2023 season, Stroud was able to elevate the offense and make chicken salad out of chicken poo. This is what a high draft pick at QB should be able and is expected to do, instead of being coddled and protected with all kinds of excuses.

Nico Collins and Tank Dell are better than any WR we've had here since DJ Moore. Cool Nico didn't do much before Stroud, that doesn't take away that his skill set fit that offense to a T. Adam Thielen hadn't had a 1,000 yard season in 4 seasons before he played with Bryce. So it doesn't matter. Then they doubled down on that success by adding Mixon and Steffon Diggs which is again way more than the Panthers gave their QBs. That is why I brought up the Texans.

[MRenshaw]

Just now, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Nico Collins and Tank Dell are better than any WR we've had here since DJ Moore. Cool Nico didn't do much before Stroud, that doesn't take away that his skill set fit that offense to a T. Adam Thielen hadn't had a 1,000 yard season in 4 seasons before he played with Bryce. So it doesn't matter. Then they doubled down on that success by adding Mixon and Steffon Diggs which is again way more than the Panthers gave their QBs. That is why I brought up the Texans.

Both Nico Collins and Tank Dell were third round draft picks. Dell was a rookie last year, and Nico had never had more than 500 receiving yards until last season. Stroud was the key to unlocking these otherwise unremarkable players. Stroud elevated them to stardom with his superior processing, quick decision making, accuracy, excellent ball placement, and veteran-like anticipation, all the traits which Bryce ironically was highly touted for. 

[frankw]

Ah yes I see someone is employing that ol' revisionist history about the 2023 Houston Texans roster as if anyone here back in May of that year had the team that was one play away from the first overall pick the season before pegged as playoff bound and winning a playoff game with a rookie QB.

It couldn't be that the presence of CJ Stroud's phsyical abilities as a passer has an effect of elevating those around him like other elite QB's before him. Which is a very common expectation for any passer picked within the top 3 picks of the draft yet for some reason here on the huddle it is unreasonable and a sign of blind hate for said QB.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

15 minutes ago, MRenshaw said:

Both Nico Collins and Tank Dell were third round draft picks. Dell was a rookie last year, and Nico had never had more than 500 receiving yards until last season. Stroud was the key to unlocking these otherwise unremarkable players. Stroud elevated them to stardom with his superior processing, quick decision making, accuracy, excellent ball placement, and veteran-like anticipation, all the traits which Bryce ironically was highly touted for. 

I mean the entire Texans organization deserves credit it's not all Stroud. Stroud is a big part of it sure but their success has been the marriage of the front office and football operations all being on the same page and being able to identify players that fit their scheme to put their franchise QB in a place where he can have success. It's what all the good organizations do. We haven't been able to find that recipe and it shows. It isn't all on just 1 person. How many times is Stroud throwing to a wide open receiver? A lot of it does have to do with the scheme they run. Bryce had wide open throws yesterday that he didn't really have year 1 and he missed them and that's the difference. Stroud probably has a good year if he was on our team this year. Last year though? I think he struggles, maybe not as bad as Bryce but he definitely wouldn't have been as good year 1 like he was with the Texans

[Mr Mojo Risin]

4 minutes ago, frankw said:

Ah yes I see someone is employing that ol' revisionist history about the 2023 Houston Texans roster as if anyone here back in May of that year had the team that was one play away from the first overall pick the season before pegged as playoff bound and winning a playoff game with a rookie QB.

It couldn't be that the presence of CJ Stroud's phsyical abilities as a passer has an effect of elevating those around him like other elite QB's before him. Which is a very common expectation for any passer picked within the top 3 picks of the draft yet for some reason here on the huddle it is unreasonable and a sign of blind hate for said QB.

They had more change than just the QB btw.