Question about 3-4 vs 4-3

[Wither]

Not that I am advocating that the Panthers use the 3-4 in any way. I'm not... in fact I like the 4-3 myself. But I'd like to point out that there really isn't much of a size difference between Ray Lewis and Beason. Also I believe that as of now Beason may be the faster player between the two as well.

Of course Beason is no Ray Lewis YET.

It's easier to run a 4-3 in my opinion. You don't need to find as many great linebackers (which isn't easy to do) and it's easier to find "big fat guys" to fill up the center of the D-line. Then you just need to find two DE's, just like you need to do in the 3-4. Obviously I'm simplifying things as you would still need good DT's.

Also, it's not as easy to find huge guys to play those positions (think tall). Not everyone is that physically gifted...

ok but think of how our defense has played since fox has been here. how often do we rush more then our front 4? if we switch to the 3-4, we are just going to rush 3 dlinemen instead of 4, making things even worse. there is no guarantee our team would move pep to OLB, especially since hes the only DE we have that is large enough to play DE in a 3-4. brayton, johnson, and brown are all way too small. most of all, besides personnel, you need a creative defensive mind running the plays that's willing to take risks.

my question is why would the panthers want to switch to the 3-4? MOST teams tend to switch over to a 3-4 as a gimmick to shut the fans up. its an easy way for a team to say, our defense sucks, so we are going to do SOMETHING to address it, whether or not its necessarily a good thing, get off our backs. no one has yet to prove that the 3-4 is BETTER than a 4-3.

The idea is that Cowher would come here and change it to 3-4.

[rayzor]

ok but think of how our defense has played since fox has been here. how often do we rush more then our front 4? if we switch to the 3-4, we are just going to rush 3 dlinemen instead of 4, making things even worse. there is no guarantee our team would move pep to OLB, especially since hes the only DE we have that is large enough to play DE in a 3-4. brayton, johnson, and brown are all way too small. most of all, besides personnel, you need a creative defensive mind running the plays that's willing to take risks.

my question is why would the panthers want to switch to the 3-4? MOST teams tend to switch over to a 3-4 as a gimmick to shut the fans up. its an easy way for a team to say, our defense sucks, so we are going to do SOMETHING to address it, whether or not its necessarily a good thing, get off our backs. no one has yet to prove that the 3-4 is BETTER than a 4-3.

ummmm....the panthers have been using a 3 man rush quite a bit the past half season and it worked pretty well.

not sure you know what you're talking about it being a gimmick, either. it's not like the wildcat.

it's a very effective blitz heavy formation for very aggressive blitzing teams. it isn't the only way to go but it is incredibly effective and works quite well in most places. it doesn't have anything to do with acknowledgeable fans. it has everything to do with tryin to have an effective defense.

that said, i don't want us to move to a 3-4. i like what stuff meeks has been doing.

[Guild]

the base defense may be a 3-4 here but the last half of the season they sure were messing around with a lot of different formations. that 3-2 became pretty effective on passing downs.

they were doing a lot of blitzing this year as well and the blitzes were coming from everywhere. they were doing it a lot more than meeks ever did in indy. i don't think the Mike ever blitzed in indy until this year.

I too liked the 3-2 with Wesley in as "Joker".

But I think that the idea of that formation is to give Wesley the option of rushing or covering a specific player based on the blocking scheme used by the opposing offense.

And you meant our base defense as a 4-3 in that post right? Or were you talking about the Panthers at some point running a base 3-4? Because I never really saw that unless you want to count some plays where Peppers rushed while standing on the LoS and the LBs shifted to the strong side.

[Brooklyn Bully]

Why do people think Cowher would change our scheme? He knows how to run a 4-3, he's not a moron. The 3-4 was simply what worked best for the Steelers. Switching up what Meeks has brought to the table (and what has finally bloomed here at season's end) would be a huge mistake.

[panthers55]

The issue with us running a 3-4 is that our DTs for example are guys who we picked up from teams transitioning to a 3-4 who didn't quite fit. Like Tank Tyler for example. It is much harder finding 3-4 linemen than 4-3 guys as few colleges play a 3-4.

As other have noted, size isn't the only issue in a linebacker but also how well do they shed blocks and take on linemen. Most of our guys are built for speed and are not as sturdy or big as protypical 3-4 linebacker. For example in a 3-4 Peppers would be a linebacker not a DE.

As for disgusing things better in a 3-4, typically 3-4s blitz alot while many 4-3s don't. Teams like Philly who run a 4-3 are every bit as difficult to defend as most 3-4s. Why? Because they blitz. That seems like the bigger issue than whether they run a 3-4 or a 4-3.

[Guild]

The issue with us running a 3-4 is that our DTs for example are guys who we picked up from teams transitioning to a 3-4 who didn't quite fit. Lie Tank Tyler for example. It is much harder finding 3-4 linemen than 4-3 guys as few coleges play a 3-4.

As other have noted, size isn't the only issue in a linebacker but also how well do they shed blocks and take on linemen. Most of our guys are built for speed and are not as sturdy or big as protypical 3-4 linebacker. For example in a 3-4 Peppers would be a linebacker not a DE.

As for disgusing things better in a 3-4, typically 3-4s blitz alot while many 4-3s don't. Teams like Philly who run a 4-3 are every bit as difficult to defend as most 3-4s. Why? Because they blitz. That seems like the bigger issue than whether they run a 3-4 or a 4-3.

Your Philly point is very valid. They are renowned for these blitzing schemes however as an exception to general principles.

[thefuzz]

4-3 is usually better against the run.

3-4 is usually better against the pass.

The top 5 teams this year can all pass the rock very well. The 3-4 is probably the better D to go up against Manning 1, Rivers, Brady, and Brees, because it's a bit easier to confuse them, and get to them.

The 4-3 can be very dangerous, but not as much as the 3-4 IMO.

P.S. I am not wanting to change to a 3=4.

[lightsout]

Here's my thing with a 3-4.

Peppers would not work for me at OLB. Do you think he can really effectively cover on passing downs? Sure, he got some picks in his early years, but like it or not he is getting older and at the end of the day, he is a pure pass rusher who plays the run decent. I'd have to keep him at DE in the 3-4, maybe occasionally drop him on zone blitzes.

Then you have Kemo, for the time being, would work at NT. Your other DE is obviously Johnson, Brayton.

OLB for ME, I'd have Diggs and Davis. Connor and Beason would be inside. Beason is a strong guy, he could take on guards effectively, if nothing else, causing a pile. He wouldn't get pushed around too much.

We could get by with it as long as we started drafting immediately to suit it. The problem right now is that we have other draft needs and if we put our stock into a 3-4, our first 3 picks would have to be an ILB, a NT, and an OLB. We need receivers and a QB drafted right now.

Again, this is just my opinion.

[Guild]

Here's my thing with a 3-4.

Peppers would not work for me at OLB. Do you think he can really effectively cover on passing downs? Sure, he got some picks in his early years, but like it or not he is getting older and at the end of the day, he is a pure pass rusher who plays the run decent. I'd have to keep him at DE in the 3-4, maybe occasionally drop him on zone blitzes.

Then you have Kemo, for the time being, would work at NT. Your other DE is obviously Johnson, Brayton.

OLB for ME, I'd have Diggs and Davis. Connor and Beason would be inside. Beason is a strong guy, he could take on guards effectively, if nothing else, causing a pile. He wouldn't get pushed around too much.

We could get by with it as long as we started drafting immediately to suit it. The problem right now is that we have other draft needs and if we put our stock into a 3-4, our first 3 picks would have to be an ILB, a NT, and an OLB. We need receivers and a QB drafted right now.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Peppers had two interceptions this season. They haven't just occured in his early years.

Aside from that, I think Peppers is probably athletic enough to cover a tight end and maybe a back or even a receiver in his zone.

[lightsout]

Yeah, but I'm saying, could he do it CONSISTENTLY. Could he really drop in the flats and cover a Chris Johnson? He could defend the screen but any warm NFL body could disrupt a screen to some extent. Then you have to figure in his ability to contain the outside on runs while not getting kicked out on inside runs. I just think its too much of a risk. He could get by but given the choice, would you rather have Diggs playing the weakside OLB, or Peppers? Because if Peppers stays with his hand in the dirt, you have Diggs and Connor right behind him. That half is take away. Especially if Peppers were to crash down, cross the tackles face and get into B gap. This occupies the tackle, if done quickly, the guard, which would help Connor and Diggs simultaneously. 3-4 is all about flow and containing. The 4-3 is about attacking. There are weaknesses and strengths to both, as stated earlier. Pick your poison.

[panthers55]

If we went to a 3-4 what are you going to do with guys like Everette Brown, Charles Johnson, Hilee Taylor and Tyler Brayton who are too small for a DE in a 3-4 and too large or not suited for a linebacker. What about Damione Lewis who isn't stout enough to take on doubleteams in a 3-4. And again outside of perhaps Beason and Peppers who would be the other guys. Folks like Connors, Anderson and Diggs and Davis are all too small or ill-suited for OLB and there are only 2 ILB spots.

Truth is I like the 4-3 fine with a little more blitzing and mixing things up. I thought at the end of the season we were doing a great job.

[Guild]

Yeah, but I'm saying, could he do it CONSISTENTLY. Could he really drop in the flats and cover a Chris Johnson? He could defend the screen but any warm NFL body could disrupt a screen to some extent. Then you have to figure in his ability to contain the outside on runs while not getting kicked out on inside runs. I just think its too much of a risk. He could get by but given the choice, would you rather have Diggs playing the weakside OLB, or Peppers? Because if Peppers stays with his hand in the dirt, you have Diggs and Connor right behind him. That half is take away. Especially if Peppers were to crash down, cross the tackles face and get into B gap. This occupies the tackle, if done quickly, the guard, which would help Connor and Diggs simultaneously. 3-4 is all about flow and containing. The 4-3 is about attacking. There are weaknesses and strengths to both, as stated earlier. Pick your poison.

While I see your point, Diggs is 31. I am going to guess that Peppers is bigger, stronger, and may even be faster.

Do I want Peppers covering CJ? Hell no. He gets Thomas Davis.

But really all of this is beside the point, I don't want us to switch to a 3-4 either.

[csx]

Brown seems like a prototypical 3-4 OLB

I think Brayton could be a decent 3-4 end.

[lightsout]

I agree with you Panthers55. For what we have, we are WELL suited for a 4-3 and will continue to be successful with it if we mix it up a little with blitzes like we did some this year. All of my statements have been completely "if we were to go to a 3-4 tomorrow" scenarios. IMO, we could get by with a 3-4, I truly believe that. We have the quickness to do it. Our D is speedy. Anybody who has ever played in a 4-4 or 3-4 will tell you, as long as you are quick and have good speed, size isn't as big a factor. Beason can get through blockers. I have full confidence in that.

Again, with all this being said, we'd be stupid to go to a 3-4. Across the board, we have depth at every position for a 4-3.