This stat tells it all

[panthers55]

You do understand that with the current rules about "defensive pass interference", "illegal contact" and over the top official enforcement of "roughing the passer" rules, the NFL has been modified to put emphasis on the pass more... right?

What you've just said is akin to saying "Heat fries bacon, not pans". Uh... duh... but you ain't cooking without a pan. And you aint scoring without a damn good QB these days.

He is simply saying it doesn't matter how you score through the air or ground, points are all that matters. He is correct although having a good pass attack and being balanced is surely important. For example Moore is not a damn good quarterback yet, but he is 4-1 as a starter this year. That was due as much to our rushing as it was due to our passing. Didn't hurt our defense was dominant and we created a bunch of turnovers. If you can run and pass, defenses have a much harder time taking away your strengths where as teams that do one or the other almost exclusively are easier to stop.

[blackcatgrowl]

For example Moore is not a damn good quarterback yet, but he is 4-1 as a starter this year.

How exactly can you quantify this assessment of Matt Moore? What evidence is there he isn't a damn good QB?

Because he had three starts as a rookie that weren't statistically great?

He's 6-2 as a starter. That would be a 12-4 record if he continued that trend for a season. That's pretty damn good to me.

Now if you want to draw comparisons against, say, Phillip Rivers, or Payton Manning, then yes, he isn't on par with them. But they aren't just "damn good QBs". They are a notch or two above that. They are Elite.

That being said, the Panthers don't need an "Elite" QB to have success. They just need a good QB. Jake Delhomme, after 6 games, proved he wasn't a good QB this year. And whatever is wrong with him could continue. If I was John Fox, and my job depended on Jake's performance, I wouldn't assume he'll get better. I certainly wouldn't have made that assumption after the debacle against Buffalo this year. And yet, that's what Fox is threatening to do.

[E CaT PanTHer]

Well lets just look at the stats again. Out of the 12 teams that made the playoffs, 10 of those teams have what I would call top tier, if not elite QB's.

Drew Brees

Brett Favre

Phillip Rivers

Peyton Manning

Tony Romo

Donovan McNabb

Carson Palmer

Tom Brady

Aaron Rodgers

Kurt Warner

The Jets and the Ravens are the only two teams that made it that probably have question marks at QB, however Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco are the exceptions, not the rule. Two very young QB's that had great rushing attacks and great defenses which helped both of them sneak in. But both teams will most likely be one and done in the playoffs b/c of their situation at QB.

Of the top 5 rushing teams in the NFL this year, 3 out of the 5 didn't make the playoffs, and that's b/c they've had question marks at the QB position all year. The Panthers, Titans, and Dolphins all missed the playoffs.

All I'm trying to say is yeah, it is possible to make the playoffs without a top tier QB, but you better be exceptional in every other aspect of the game, and that will still only get you so far. It's a QB league, and the stats speak for itself.

[panthers55]

How exactly can you quantify this assessment of Matt Moore? What evidence is there he isn't a damn good QB?

Because he had three starts as a rookie that weren't statistically great?

He's 6-2 as a starter. That would be a 12-4 record if he continued that trend for a season. That's pretty damn good to me.

Now if you want to draw comparisons against, say, Phillip Rivers, or Payton Manning, then yes, he isn't on par with them. But they aren't just "damn good QBs". They are a notch or two above that. They are Elite.

That being said, the Panthers don't need an "Elite" QB to have success. They just need a good QB. Jake Delhomme, after 6 games, proved he wasn't a good QB this year. And whatever is wrong with him could continue. If I was John Fox, and my job depended on Jake's performance, I wouldn't assume he'll get better. I certainly wouldn't have made that assumption after the debacle against Buffalo this year. And yet, that's what Fox is threatening to do.

For me 3 games 2 years ago and 5 games this year isn't enough to proclaim someone very good. Not enough time yet. Why do all you folks get your panties in a wad when someone doesn't proclain Moore all world after less than 1 season of play in his career.

Remember teams win and lose not players. Moore benefitted from a good rushing attack and a great defensive effort. After all he only threw for over 200 yards 1 time all year. Obviously your standards are much lower than mine. And no before you say it, I never thought Jake would qualify as a "very good quarterback" either.

And no Fox isn't threatening to put Jake back in. The fact that he isn't trashing him in public or kicking him to the curb when we owe him 13 million this year whether we keep him or not is a far cry from stating that he will be the starter in 2009.

Paranoia around here is reaching epic proportions. It should be through the roof if jake is still on the roster come training camp.

[frash.exe]

I don't think we need to become a strictly passing offense, just a balanced one

both extremes are one dimensional

I'd rather have an offense that can both pass and run when needed. that is the most dangerous one. see the Saints offense this year.

[E CaT PanTHer]

For me 3 games 2 years ago and 5 games this year isn't enough to proclaim someone very good. Not enough time yet. Why do all you folks get your panties in a wad when someone doesn't proclain Moore all world after less than 1 season of play in his career.

Remember teams win and lose not players. Moore benefitted from a good rushing attack and a great defensive effort. After all he only threw for over 200 yards 1 time all year. Obviously your standards are much lower than mine. And no before you say it, I never thought Jake would qualify as a "very good quarterback" either.

And no Fox isn't threatening to put Jake back in. The fact that he isn't trashing him in public or kicking him to the curb when we owe him 13 million this year whether we keep him or not is a far cry from stating that he will be the starter in 2009.

Paranoia around here is reaching epic proportions. It should be through the roof if jake is still on the roster come training camp.

I actually think Jake would be in that category of "very good QB." Maybe not in 2008, but in 2003 and in 2005, Jake Delhomme was a top 10, if not a top 5 QB in the league at that time. The dude just knew how to make plays. He didn't have many multi-interception games. He had a ton of 4th quarter comebacks, and was a guy you actually wanted to have the ball in the 4th quarter with the game on the line. Jake Delhomme was the reason we made it to a superbowl and an NFCCG.

Yes Matt Moore is not there yet, but in the opportunity he has been given, he has proven a lot, and I think will only get better with experience.

[panthers55]

Well lets just look at the stats again. Out of the 12 teams that made the playoffs, 10 of those teams have what I would call top tier, if not elite QB's.

Drew Brees

Brett Favre

Phillip Rivers

Peyton Manning

Tony Romo

Donovan McNabb

Carson Palmer

Tom Brady

Aaron Rodgers

Kurt Warner

The Jets and the Ravens are the only two teams that made it that probably have question marks at QB, however Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco are the exceptions, not the rule. Two very young QB's that had great rushing attacks and great defenses which helped both of them sneak in. But both teams will most likely be one and done in the playoffs b/c of their situation at QB.

Of the top 5 rushing teams in the NFL this year, 3 out of the 5 didn't make the playoffs, and that's b/c they've had question marks at the QB position all year. The Panthers, Titans, and Dolphins all missed the playoffs.

All I'm trying to say is yeah, it is possible to make the playoffs without a top tier QB, but you better be exceptional in every other aspect of the game, and that will still only get you so far. It's a QB league, and the stats speak for itself.

How many guys are top tier? 16? That is where Carson Palmer finished in passer rating. McNabb finished 12th and Kurt warner finished 10th. How come when Jake finished 15th in rating he was average yet Palmer finishes 16th and he is top tier.

And why is Flacco not elite and Palmer is, yet Flacco finished above him in quarterback ratings?

And if a top tier quarterback is all it takes than why were Roethlisberger and Schaub in the top 10 yet their teams didn't make the playoffs.

Yeah I get the point that top quarterbacks help you win and make the playoffs but it takes more than that. You need an offense that scores points and a defense that limits opponents scoring. I know that is simplistic but it is the truth.

And lets see how many teams get eliminated who have a great passing attack and little else. They better be playing in a dome because when it gets cold or in bad weather you better have good defense and a rushing attack if you want to survive.

[blackcatgrowl]

For me 3 games 2 years ago and 5 games this year isn't enough to proclaim someone very good. Not enough time yet. Why do all you folks get your panties in a wad when someone doesn't proclain Moore all world after less than 1 season of play in his career.

Remember teams win and lose not players. Moore benefitted from a good rushing attack and a great defensive effort. After all he only threw for over 200 yards 1 time all year. Obviously your standards are much lower than mine. And no before you say it, I never thought Jake would qualify as a "very good quarterback" either.

And no Fox isn't threatening to put Jake back in. The fact that he isn't trashing him in public or kicking him to the curb when we owe him 13 million this year whether we keep him or not is a far cry from stating that he will be the starter in 2009.

Paranoia around here is reaching epic proportions. It should be through the roof if jake is still on the roster come training camp.

You're speaking in extremes - I'm speaking in context. I'm not saying Moore should be considered "all world". How did you get that from any of what I said?

Fox threatened to keep Delhomme the starter after the Bills game, and did. From that point to now, the ONLY reason we had Moore playing is because Delhomme got injured (officially). And there have been comments about how his healing is progressing. If they didn't have plans for him as a potential starter, they wouldn't even bother to print how his finger is healing.

It's the same press coverage they used with Foster's ankle after 2006, and they kept him the starter. That's not paranoia. It's patented action by Fox and the Panthers media.

And high passing numbers doesn't automatically mean you are a good QB. It just means you have good receivers, or your running game sucks, or your defense blows and you're playing from behind all the time.

Ex. David Garrard threw for 3597 yards this season. Jay Cutler threw for 3666. That's more than Donovan McNabb AND Carson Palmer. Would you say they are "better" than either of them?

Teams lose, yes, but one bad player can bring a whole team down. Bad Coaches don't adjust their roster when they have to deal with a player going bad. Enter Jake Delhomme.

Besides, the stats don't lie. You need solid QB play to be a championship level team. And that's what the fans of this team want. Not 8-8.

[E CaT PanTHer]

How many guys are top tier? 16? That is where Carson Palmer finished in passer rating. McNabb finished 12th and Kurt warner finished 10th. How come when Jake finished 15th in rating he was average yet Palmer finishes 16th and he is top tier.

And why is Flacco not elite and Palmer is, yet Flacco finished above him in quarterback ratings?

And if a top tier quarterback is all it takes than why were Roethlisberger and Schaub in the top 10 yet their teams didn't make the playoffs.

Yeah I get the point that top quarterbacks help you win and make the playoffs but it takes more than that. You need an offense that scores points and a defense that limits opponents scoring. I know that is simplistic but it is the truth.

And lets see how many teams get eliminated who have a great passing attack and little else. They better be playing in a dome because when it gets cold or in bad weather you better have good defense and a rushing attack if you want to survive.

I agree with what you're saying, but you're putting too much in how the QB performed this year, and neglecting the type of QB's they've been their whole career. So what if a QB didn't have the most attractive season this year stats wise, but if I were to ask you which QB you'd want leading your team in the playoffs, what would you say?? Palmer or Flacco. How about Brady or Flacco. I know Brady had an off year this year and I'm pretty sure his stats are right in the middle of the pack in the NFL, but you see where I'm getting at. All these guys are top tier b/c they've had success in the NFL for so long. Say Peyton was 16th in the NFL in passer rating, I'd still choose him over Flacco b/c I know come playoff time, I'd want the ball in his hands.

Yeah Ben and Matt didn't make it this year, but like I said there are exceptions and there are rules. Those guys are the exceptions.

[rico6]

That stat means poo.

Top Rated QB's + Top Rated Passing Offense= W's

And both teams have great defense's.

[panthers55]

You're speaking in extremes - I'm speaking in context. I'm not saying Moore should be considered "all world". How did you get that from any of what I said?

Fox threatened to keep Delhomme the starter after the Bills game, and did. From that point to now, the ONLY reason we had Moore playing is because Delhomme got injured (officially). And there have been comments about how his healing is progressing. If they didn't have plans for him as a potential starter, they wouldn't even bother to print how his finger is healing.

It's the same press coverage they used with Foster's ankle after 2006, and they kept him the starter. That's not paranoia. It's patented action by Fox and the Panthers media.

And high passing numbers doesn't automatically mean you are a good QB. It just means you have good receivers, or your running game sucks, or your defense blows and you're playing from behind all the time.

Ex. David Garrard threw for 3597 yards this season. Jay Cutler threw for 3666. That's more than Donovan McNabb AND Carson Palmer. Would you say they are "better" than either of them?

Teams lose, yes, but one bad player can bring a whole team down. Bad Coaches don't adjust their roster when they have to deal with a player going bad. Enter Jake Delhomme.

Besides, the stats don't lie. You need solid QB play to be a championship level team. And that's what the fans of this team want. Not 8-8.

Pretty good job of kitchen sinking. You threw a ton of stuff out there hoping something would stick.

Again if you beleive half of what Fox or Hunrey say in public you are a dupe. enough said.

As to all the comments about quality stats (ie. total yards versus quality stats such as yards per atempt, int to Td ration, passer rating, etc.) you are preaching to the choir.

You need solid quarterback play to win championships? Profound.

Who wants 8-8??

Alot of words but little substance. You sound alot like John Fox with all the trite content.

[CatMan72]

So under this theory, how do you explain the Steelers winning the SB (40) while Rothesberger had one of the worst SB QB ratings ever?

[CatMan72]

...and how many combined SB's have the Chargers and Colts won with their elite passing games? (1).

Offense wins games, defense wins championships.

[panthers55]

I agree with what you're saying, but you're putting too much in how the QB performed this year, and neglecting the type of QB's they've been their whole career. So what if a QB didn't have the most attractive season this year stats wise, but if I were to ask you which QB you'd want leading your team in the playoffs, what would you say?? Palmer or Flacco. How about Brady or Flacco. I know Brady had an off year this year and I'm pretty sure his stats are right in the middle of the pack in the NFL, but you see where I'm getting at. All these guys are top tier b/c they've had success in the NFL for so long. Say Peyton was 16th in the NFL in passer rating, I'd still choose him over Flacco b/c I know come playoff time, I'd want the ball in his hands.

Yeah Ben and Matt didn't make it this year, but like I said there are exceptions and there are rules. Those guys are the exceptions.

I get what you are saying. It is ironic on this board that you would make a post emphasizing looking at a whole career rather than just one year. I actually agree with you. Seems that argument was made in regards to a certain quarterback and was overwhelmingly rejected by the huddle masses. Sure non of these guys were as bad as the quarterback who won't be named but the response seems to always be you are only as good as you were this year. I like you, tend to look at the bigger picture.