i really fucking wish this would be the way the Panthers organization was run

[panthers55]

it wasn't a huge adjustment the Panthers went through. Meeks' defense is more simplified and run on a base package the defense had run before. Tampa 2 wasn't a mystery to us.

Bill Sheridan was a little more conservative than Spagnuolo and called far less blitzes, which was how the defense became so successful. Against lesser teams like Washington and Oakland and Tampa Bay whose offensive lines were weaker it worked but against stronger competition it was ineffective.

Many teams run a cover 2 for example but they aren't all the same. We run a cover 2 when we blitz, so does Philly. You think our defense is anything like they are?

We have never run the scheme that Meeks advocated so it was completely new to us. The only way we were familiar with it was seeing Tampa run it twice a year. That isn't the same as running it ourselves. The fact we stood around and make tons of mistakes with blown coverages shows we didn't have a clue until about week 8. It isn't just running the scheme but how it is run, who covers who, who supports what on which play etc.

[panthers55]

7 - 9 = below average / 3 years

8-8 = middle / 2 years

above that / 3 years

Sounds to me a lot of people on this board went from fire Fox! To medicrity is where we belong, lets give him one more chance...AGAIN!

As for the teams that can say that I'm sure it would be about half the league

Tell me who all these people are who are fine with 7-9 or 8-8. I am not nor are most panther fans. We offer the reality of what happened as an explanation not an endorsement. I have already said I would be fine for Fox to leave. I don't have a clue who you seem to be talking about.

As for how many teams have only had 1 losing season in the past 4, do the research and tell me or move on. I know the answer but most of you don't.

[panthers55]

lol 2007 was "a fluke"

and Fox just got unlucky when he had his chance. FFS how we seek to canonize this guy at every opportunity.

Fox isn't better than Coughlin, not even to this day. Coughlin has made countless postseasons with two different teams, he's won a superbowl, and Fox has done a lot less. Coughlin coached a franchise in it's infancy and turned it into a respectable contender immediately when Fox was a personnel consultant.

Other than 2007 Couglin has gone one and done every year in New York Coughlin was also fired in Jacksonville after he lost the team. He has been around longer but that doesn't make him better. And yeah he won a superbowl but again he has had better talent to work with and still has done little outside of 2007. You guys brought up the Giants as an elite team and Coughlin an elite coach. He isn't on any of my lists nor are the Giants.

[HPPantherzfan]

Tell me who all these people are who are fine with 7-9 or 8-8. I am not nor are most panther fans. We offer the reality of what happened as an explanation not an endorsement. I have already said I would be fine for Fox to leave. I don't have a clue who you seem to be talking about.

As for how many teams have only had 1 losing season in the past 4, do the research and tell me or move on. I know the answer but most of you don't.

off of the top of my head

Dallas

Philly

Minn

NE

Indy

Chargers

Green Bay

NYG

NYJ

Pitt

Jac?

Again off the top of my head! I do like the way you worded it though. Guess how many WINNING seasons we have had in the past 4 years?

2006 = 7 9

2007 = 8-8

2008 = 12-4

2009 = 8-8

So, while technically we have had only ONE losing season in 4 years we have also only had ONE winnings season! As for whom I'm speaking with, well that would be anyone saying Fox is a great coach and should stay because...Fox isn't as good as everyone, including the media, makes him out to be. At least not in my opinion!

[panthers55]

Yes but they went to the playoffs four times and coughlin is on the hotseat for the second time despite winning a super bowl. Because elite teams don't accept mediocrity like the panthers do

Not even close. Since you are a Giants fan you really need to know your team better. First of all outside of 2007, the Giants under Coughlin have gone one and done every time. Secondly he hason three occasions like in 2009 started great and finished poorly. In 2004 his rookie year they started 5-2 and lost 6 out of their last seven to finish 6-10. In 2005 they go 11-5 and get shut out by us 23-0 in the wildcard game. In 2006 they go 6-2 only to collapse again losing 6 out of their last 7 to finish 8-8. So if you look at it, Coughlin has a history of starting fast and finishing poorly. Even in 2008 after going 12-4 they were 1 and done in the playoffs.

Fox has not been great for sure but we seem to start slow and finish fast often enough that folks come away like they did this year feeling optimistic whereas with Coughlin, people end up feeling frustrated feeling like the coaching is the reason things collapsed 3 out of the 6 years he has been there.

[ed bell]

Check out the regular season records of the G-boys since the merger. Elite? Hardly. The three Super Bowl wins are nice, but it took them 20 years to even make the game. Before Parcells and a Hall of Fame Defense showed up in the mid 80's, the Giants were terrible. The way the team laid down this year, those times may be returning. All this talk about "elite" teams is just part of the temporary ebb and flow of the professional game. Pittsburgh is probably the best example of a team that has been able to do well more frequently than other teams since the merger, but even they struggle from time to time.

[panthers55]

off of the top of my head

Dallas

Philly

Minn

NE

Indy

Chargers

Green Bay

NYG

NYJ

Pitt

Jac?

Again off the top of my head! I do like the way you worded it though. Guess how many WINNING seasons we have had in the past 4 years?

2006 = 7 9

2007 = 8-8

2008 = 12-4

2009 = 8-8

So, while technically we have had only ONE losing season in 4 years we have also only had ONE winnings season! As for whom I'm speaking with, well that would be anyone saying Fox is a great coach and should stay because...Fox isn't as good as everyone, including the media, makes him out to be. At least not in my opinion!

You were right except for Jacksonville which you put a question mark on. Still that is 10 other teams including what most would call elite teams. Meaning as an expansion franchise we have out performed 22 of 32 teams over the past 4 years. How about this wording: we have only had 2 losing seasons since the beginning of 2003 or the past 7 seasons. Looking at that would drop out several of those teams you noted as well.

No one says that Fox's teams are great nor are they poor. They range from average to above average depending on the season. Would we like more consistent winning teams every year. Absolutely. So would most of the other teams in the league as well.

[frash.exe]

Other than 2007 Couglin has gone one and done every year in New York Coughlin was also fired in Jacksonville after he lost the team. He has been around longer but that doesn't make him better. And yeah he won a superbowl but again he has had better talent to work with and still has done little outside of 2007. You guys brought up the Giants as an elite team and Coughlin an elite coach. He isn't on any of my lists nor are the Giants.

One other coach I can think of made the playoffs every single year from 2005-2008.

and he didn't have better talent to work with, especially in the 2007 postseason. (they are much better than us at developing late round draft picks.) their defensive payroll was one of the least expensive in the league until last year, they were missing Shockey and Kiwanuka. The running game that replaced Tiki Barber was comprised of Brandon Jacobs, a fourth round draft pick, and Ahmad Bradshaw, a 7th round draft pick. Their other back, Derrick Ward, a guy they had farmed for years and was also a 7th round pick, was out on IR.

He is better than Fox. He had a bad fall this year but it doesn't discount all the things he's done in NY. This is one of those things you cannot just manipulate the chips to go your way.

[panthers55]

One other coach I can think of made the playoffs every single year from 2005-2008.

and he didn't have better talent to work with, especially in the 2007 postseason. (they are much better than us at developing late round draft picks.) their defensive payroll was one of the least expensive in the league until last year, they were missing Shockey and Kiwanuka. The running game that replaced Tiki Barber was comprised of Brandon Jacobs, a fourth round draft pick, and Ahmad Bradshaw, a 7th round draft pick. Their other back, Derrick Ward, a guy they had farmed for years and was also a 7th round pick, was out on IR.

He is better than Fox. He had a bad fall this year but it doesn't discount all the things he's done in NY. This is one of those things you cannot just manipulate the chips to go your way.

No hes not. 3 out of the 6 years he has had teams that collapsed horribly after fast starts. That suggests either injuries which you ignore or poor coaching.

Secondly saying he made the playoffs 2005 through 2008 without noting that other than 2007 he didn't win a playoff game the other three years again points to coaching. Finally he was let go in Jacksonville after 3 losing seasons in a row. He has had more succes in new York than Jacksonville but that is due to more talent for sure. In fact with the talent Coughlin had on defense in 2007 it is a travesty that they played so poorly for most of the season.

[frash.exe]

No hes not. 3 out of the 6 years he has had teams that collapsed horribly after fast starts. That suggests either injuries which you ignore or poor coaching.

Secondly saying he made the playoffs 2005 through 2008 without noting that other than 2007 he didn't win a playoff game the other three years again points to coaching. Finally he was let go in Jacksonville after 3 losing seasons in a row. He has had more succes in new York than Jacksonville but that is due to more talent for sure. In fact with the talent Coughlin had on defense in 2007 it is a travesty that they played so poorly for most of the season.

Ok, so you think Fox provides so much more to Carolina than Coughlin does to NY. You also think that head coaching evaluations should be influenced heavily by how good the team is during their worst season W/L wise, so we're never going to fuging agree on key issues.

What about 10 consecutive road victories in 2007? I guess Coughlin contributed nothing to that achievement either, it was all talent.

[Gman was right]

Not even close. Since you are a Giants fan you really need to know your team better. First of all outside of 2007, the Giants under Coughlin have gone one and done every time. Secondly he hason three occasions like in 2009 started great and finished poorly. In 2004 his rookie year they started 5-2 and lost 6 out of their last seven to finish 6-10. In 2005 they go 11-5 and get shut out by us 23-0 in the wildcard game. In 2006 they go 6-2 only to collapse again losing 6 out of their last 7 to finish 8-8. So if you look at it, Coughlin has a history of starting fast and finishing poorly. Even in 2008 after going 12-4 they were 1 and done in the playoffs.

Fox has not been great for sure but we seem to start slow and finish fast often enough that folks come away like they did this year feeling optimistic whereas with Coughlin, people end up feeling frustrated feeling like the coaching is the reason things collapsed 3 out of the 6 years he has been there.

My name has nothing to do with the Giants. Sorry spanky! Yes, they did go 8-8 in 2006 but they still went to the playoffs that year. I never questioned the record, I simply said he's been to the playoffs 4 out of 6 years. Pay attention son! Coughlin has been more consistent than John Fox throughout his whole coaching career and thats not even up for debate! Yet he is rightfully on the hot seat next year after underachieving this year and last year in the playoffs. Thats because the Giants have a higher standard than the panthers do. Coughlin wins a super bowl and has 4 playoff seasons and thats not got enough. Fox has 3 winning seasons in 8 years and he gets invited to come back. Do you not see the difference in how the franchises are run? The panthers simply do not set the bar very high.

[kdrh5]

The only people trying to argue with the OP have been apologizing for Fox's bad decisions all year, and in years past. Can't be reasoned with. I don't hate Fox, but we could do better if he left.

[frash.exe]

Many teams run a cover 2 for example but they aren't all the same. We run a cover 2 when we blitz, so does Philly. You think our defense is anything like they are?

We have never run the scheme that Meeks advocated so it was completely new to us. The only way we were familiar with it was seeing Tampa run it twice a year. That isn't the same as running it ourselves. The fact we stood around and make tons of mistakes with blown coverages shows we didn't have a clue until about week 8. It isn't just running the scheme but how it is run, who covers who, who supports what on which play etc.

yep it was so much harder than trying to digest mike trgovac's 15 volume playbook

[Cynonyte]

:iagree:

The Giants look at 8-8 as a failure

We look at 8-8 as "it is what it is"

hahahahah so F'n true