Reason(s) for the OL struggles

[t96]

The most obvious point here is our guards being hurt but I don't think it fully accounts for how much Ickey, Moton and Bozeman have struggled after they were all 3 well above average at their positions last year. Yes having Corbett and Brady healthy would be a huge help, but I think it really boils down to scheme fit and the style of blocking within the scheme. OL play is really about how cohesive the unit is within a scheme and less so each individual talent (of course talent is critical but we've seen coaches like Belichick, Shanahan, Reid, McVay getting more out of their OLs than the sum of the individual talent. 

I'm no x's and o's expert but Campen with these same guys did an incredible job last year in a very different scheme and now they've been the worst OL in the league. Corbett is a big loss but I don't think Zavala is that much worse than Brady and guard is a much easier position to backfill than tackle, talent wise, so I don't think the injuries are the main reason for this significant of a drop off.

Was the directive from Tepper for Frank to keep Campen a mistake if the way he coaches the OL doesn't fit within Frank's O scheme? I didn't follow the Colts super close with Frank but outside of Nelson being dominant I always thought they generally had a poor OL -- was that due to pure lack of talent there or is Frank's scheme not OL friendly? Of course there are more factors here like weapons getting open, QB navigating the pocket/cohesiveness on where the OL forces the pass rush to go before getting beat. I would tend to lean towards the problem being Frank's scheme more than purely the OL talent, Campen or some of those other factors but curious what others think?

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, t96 said:

The most obvious point here is our guards being hurt but I don't think it fully accounts for how much Ickey, Moton and Bozeman have struggled after they were all 3 well above average at their positions last year. Yes having Corbett and Brady healthy would be a huge help, but I think it really boils down to scheme fit and the style of blocking within the scheme. OL play is really about how cohesive the unit is within a scheme and less so each individual talent (of course talent is critical but we've seen coaches like Belichick, Shanahan, Reid, McVay getting more out of their OLs than the sum of the individual talent. 

I'm no x's and o's expert but Campen with these same guys did an incredible job last year in a very different scheme and now they've been the worst OL in the league. Corbett is a big loss but I don't think Zavala is that much worse than Brady and guard is a much easier position to backfill than tackle, talent wise, so I don't think the injuries are the main reason for this significant of a drop off.

Was the directive from Tepper for Frank to keep Campen a mistake if the way he coaches the OL doesn't fit within Frank's O scheme? I didn't follow the Colts super close with Frank but outside of Nelson being dominant I always thought they generally had a poor OL -- was that due to pure lack of talent there or is Frank's scheme not OL friendly? Of course there are more factors here like weapons getting open, QB navigating the pocket/cohesiveness on where the OL forces the pass rush to go before getting beat. I would tend to lean towards the problem being Frank's scheme more than purely the OL talent, Campen or some of those other factors but curious what others think?

I think it's a scheme fit thing, TBH.

[jayboogieman]

12 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I think it's a scheme fit thing, TBH.

Yep. The Panthers' Oline was built for road grading 1 on 1, not a zone scheme or whatever they're trying to do now.

[Bear Hands]

To me I think it's absolutely about playcalling, not scheme.  The scheme change is honestly a tad overblown.  We're just not running a diverse playbook right now and it is just too redundant/easy to diagnose.   

Thing is, McAdoo ran zone concepts.  Heck, look at the Lions game last year where we had the most yards in the modern era for a first half- so many of the runs were stretch plays with Chuba, misdirects, thinning the defense out by having 4 WR sets to open up the box.  We'd disguise a formation to look like it was a DJ Moore screen and counter in the other direction with a handoff.  Some of Foreman's big runs were where the line pushes a D laterally and he would cut in the counter direction shooting up a nice gap created.  

Reich is just running A LOT and I mean A LOT of repetitive playcalls that is not disguising anything and creating any running game mismatches.  Split Zone all day.  And when you can't have guards creating displacement, the D breaks the front and timing is off.  It's all about execution and timing.  

You'd be amazed at how much an OL can break down by just missing one guy like Corbett.  They communicate so much beyond pre-snap and having essentially 2 void spaces between Icky and Boze and then between Boze and Moton--it becomes very difficult to execute appropriately.  There's too many mental hiccups and learning on the job right now by some of these players.  

[lightsout]

9 minutes ago, jayboogieman said:

Yep. The Panthers' Oline was built for road grading 1 on 1, not a zone scheme or whatever they're trying to do now.

 

I mean run blocking is run blocking and most of our zone work seems to be inside zone, which is basically just chipping and passing off. Very physical and not a lot of lateral movement aside from the initial step to gain ground. The stretches we have ran haven't looked great but that's because zone stretch isn't as effective with the speed most defenses have in today's NFL and the schemes teams are running defensively. It's why tosses are so prevalent, it's about the only way to get outside apart from power hitting and letting the edge contain squeeze himself inside due to momentum, because that allows the linemen to actually pull and run instead of stepping and then trying to wall and climb.

[Bear Hands]

3 minutes ago, lightsout said:

 

I mean run blocking is run blocking and most of our zone work seems to be inside zone, which is basically just chipping and passing off. Very physical and not a lot of lateral movement aside from the initial step to gain ground. The stretches we have ran haven't looked great but that's because zone stretch isn't as effective with the speed most defenses have in today's NFL and the schemes teams are running defensively. It's why tosses are so prevalent, it's about the only way to get outside apart from power hitting and letting the edge contain squeeze himself inside due to momentum, because that allows the linemen to actually pull and run instead of stepping and then trying to wall and climb.

Agree with a bit of that.  I don't know the right way to say this but we just seem too much of a "fixed system" right now with parts that don't pair well. Our personnel is also cramping our style, running concepts where you need speed, against speedy defenses.  

Stretch zone works when you have a fun ebb and flow between spread and condensed formations (see Shanahan/McVay/McDaniel).  You also need the speed at WR to keep a defense honest and actually stretch their personnel pre-snap with that stuff.  We just don't have the personnel, aren't doing enough presnap to keep a D on their heels, and just aren't being that creative.  Thus, we're getting really bottled up with inside runs right now.         

Reich's offenses have fallen into this trap before when guys like TY went down.   It's an overused word but what we're running is just not very dynamic, very stagnant.  

[CRA]

when a NFL defense knows what you are doing.....you aren't going to be successful.   That's our story IMO. 

you need dominant talent for the you know what I am doing but try and stop me approach. 

[JawnyBlaze]

In order of impact, here’s what see (and none of this is unique, I’m just listing them in the order I think they’re having a negative effect)

1. The Guard problem. OLmen depend on the guy next to them. All three of the starters are struggling because they can’t depend on the guy next to them. It’s not like we’re missing our RG and RT and Ickey is struggling, that wouldn’t affect Ickey as much. None of our three starters playing has a reliable person next to them. 
 

2. Predictability. Because our run plays are mostly vanilla and our pass plays are near the LoS it allows the defenders to cheat. The ATL Safety said that verbatim. When they know what kind of play is coming, whether it’s a run up the middle or a short pass play, it allows the defense to get the upper hand at the LoS, putting our OL at a disadvantage. 
 

3. Scheme/fit. TBH I’m not knowledgeable enough about what scheme our OL is running vs what they’ve succeeded at in the past, so I’m just throwing it up here cuz there’s certainly a chance that there could be ill fitting pieces here since our offense changed with new coaches. 

[DJ feed me moore]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

 

you need dominant talent for the you know what I am doing but try and stop me approach. 

I miss him so much bros....

[Cdparr7]

It's 100% a scheme thing. These guys just don't fit in the type of offense they are being asked to run. These are down hill run blockers for a vertical power scheme. These guys are meant to fire off the ball and block gap assignments to the second level not pass blocking 50 reps per game and casual zone runs. 

[Dave Gettleman's Shorts]

all of our running plays are a HB dive up the middle from shotgun while starting a raw 4th round rookie, a back up whose been here for only 3 weeks, and a full back.

we have no run game that puts the offense into 3rd and longs which allows the defense to pin their ears back against an already struggling interior O-line

[Khyber53]

Okay so, back in training camp it was such a major news story that when they were going to have a sit down with the offensive line guys, Bryce stepped forward and said he'd like to lead the discussion and tell them how they needed to work in this scheme. It was an amazing show of his grasp of the system and the people involved in it, a real leadership moment foretelling how great he was.

They said.

Maybe the scheme is so basic that a rookie without even a pre-game snap was able to explain it. Imagine what a defensive coordinator with years and years of practice and observation could get from looking at it. And then turn a bunch of sack monsters loose with the knowledge that the scheme is that easy to pick apart.

The word we are looking for here is: roadkill. Wide-eyed roadkill.

We were confident that a rookie QB could explain the line's assignments and the theories that went into making up the scheme.  A rookie.

And we're wondering why it won't work.

[pantherclaw]

1 hour ago, JawnyBlaze said:

In order of impact, here’s what see (and none of this is unique, I’m just listing them in the order I think they’re having a negative effect)

1. The Guard problem. OLmen depend on the guy next to them. All three of the starters are struggling because they can’t depend on the guy next to them. It’s not like we’re missing our RG and RT and Ickey is struggling, that wouldn’t affect Ickey as much. None of our three starters playing has a reliable person next to them. 
 

This here has been the biggest issue. The other guys are great players, but without the unity and chemistry of the guards that play beside them, it brings the whole unit down. 

[Cdparr7]

23 minutes ago, Dave Gettleman's Shorts said:

all of our running plays are a HB dive up the middle from shotgun while starting a raw 4th round rookie, a back up whose been here for only 3 weeks, and a full back.

we have no run game that puts the offense into 3rd and longs which allows the defense to pin their ears back against an already struggling interior O-line

Most of what you're calling HB dives that we are running are actually just RPOs with a run read at the midline. The linemen are just base blocking head up/playside gaps. Actual dives are slightly more complex but easy enough that everyone in the league runs them except for us.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Cdparr7