Why isn't Reich calling plays for Hurst?

[Waldo]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Those aren't even close to the same thing, a RB who is mainly used as a runner is only involved when they directly call runs for him, while a TE can be on the field for lots of snaps, have lots of routes run, but not be involved because the QB decides to keep throwing to other players.

Yes, every play of course has multiple reads, but in this offense, unless they directly call a play that makes him the first read, the most he's ever going to be is the 3rd read on any given play as Thielen and Chark will almost always be the first 2 (assuming progression patterns on a certain call don't dictate something else of course).

I don't think it's semantics when talking about getting an at best 3rd read (and honestly maybe 4th or 5th on a given play behind Mingo/TMJ/Sanders) involved in the offense as you say.  The coaches can get him involved by calling specific plays for him while the QB can get him involved by checking down to him more often, two very different things and not at all semantics with how they're talked about.

Again, the OP was talking about purposefully getting him involved more and throwing to him, which I again say doesn't make much sense unless matchups dictate it because Thielen will always be a better option on similar routes/needs.  I have no issue with the QB's using him more, but I wouldn't suggest the coaches running specific plays for him at the expense of plays run for Thielen who is pretty clearly our best pass catcher in my eyes.

Yeah RBs do a lot more than just run or they should and getting more RBs other than Sanders involved is a thing they also need to try again. I said short passing game, 1 Theilen (for you) and 2 Hurst in different directions with the rest going elsewhere. It's so easy. One is a WR and the other is a TE so I hope they do get different looks, that is the entire point of combining them on some plays. Look at the passing charts. There is plenty of small work being done to go around. I said a sprinkling, not heavy, would allow the others to maybe get open, looking at TMJ, or more effective deeper stuff to Chark. It's called spreading it around which is what the OP was talking about which tends to open it up for others which I am guessing was the entire point. 

How is rotating another player into the mix when Theilin already being option 1 isn't working well enough anything less than something to try? The more people getting receptions is a great thing, not a negative. It should open up somethings for others which is the entire point.

[Dave Gettleman's Shorts]

who needs Hayden hurst/laviska/chuba when you can run qb read options with dalton

[RumHam]

since you're all of a sudden downplaying hurst and defending reich, what is hurst's contract look like? If we are playing him like Ian Thomas, are we paying him like Ian Thomas? I'm pretty sure we're not. It just more inept coaching from Rhule 2.0.

[RumHam]

4 minutes ago, Dave Gettleman's Shorts said:

who needs Hayden hurst/laviska/chuba when you can run qb read options with dalton

and not a single one with Bryce? Oh forgot, he'll get hurt. Well he's "hurt". Franchise is a complete disaster. At least we're not locked in with russell wilson i guess? 

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

since you're all of a sudden downplaying hurst and defending reich, what is hurst's contract look like? If we are playing him like Ian Thomas, are we paying him like Ian Thomas? I'm pretty sure we're not. It just more inept coaching from Rhule 2.0.

Ian Thomas has the exact same base salary as Hurst and is a bigger cap hit than Hurst.   Ian has the 9th biggest cap hit this year. 

NEXT year, Hurst jumps up to a 10 million dollar cap hit LMAO. 

 

[tukafan21]

50 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Yeah RBs do a lot more than just run or they should and getting more RBs other than Sanders involved is a thing they also need to try again. I said short passing game, 1 Theilen (for you) and 2 Hurst in different directions with the rest going elsewhere. It's so easy. One is a WR and the other is a TE so I hope they do get different looks, that is the entire point of combining them on some plays. Look at the passing charts. There is plenty of small work being done to go around. I said a sprinkling, not heavy, would allow the others to maybe get open, looking at TMJ, or more effective deeper stuff to Chark. It's called spreading it around which is what the OP was talking about which tends to open it up for others which I am guessing was the entire point. 

How is rotating another player into the mix when Theilin already being option 1 isn't working well enough anything less than something to try? The more people getting receptions is a great thing, not a negative. It should open up somethings for others which is the entire point.

No, the OP is not talking about spreading the ball around, he's talking about the coaches drawing up specific plays for Hurst to be the first and main target, which I'd be very strongly against.

You're talking about the QB, whether it Bryce or Dalton, spreading around their targets to include Hurst some more, which I'm fine with.

Hurst is an average TE and there is nothing wrong with that.  Send him out on routes and sure, give him 5 or so targets a game through the QB working their progressions and finding him when open and it's the best read.

But Hurst is NOT the type of player that you purposefully call specific plays for where they're the #1 option unless there is some serious mis-match with the opponents not good at covering the TE position, which is what the OP was calling for.

There is a significant difference between the two and it's not just semantics, I'm fully on board with what you're saying, but not the OP.  You're acting like I'm saying we should ignore Hurst or keep him on the bench, but I'm not, I'm just saying he should never be the first read or have a play called to purposefully try and get him the ball over one of our WRs outside of specific matchup situations.

Sure, maybe a play or two a game because the defense is ignoring him, dial up a play call for Hurst.  But outside of that, he's not a good enough player to make him the first or second read when we have Thielen, Chark, Mingo on the field, and I could even make the argument that Laviska should also take priority over him due to him being so much better at making plays happen once he has the ball in his hands than Hurst does.

Edited September 26, 2023 by tukafan21

[ForJimmy]

6 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

No, the OP is not talking about spreading the ball around, he's talking about the coaches drawing up specific plays for Hurst to be the first and main target, which I'd be very strongly against.

You're talking about the QB, whether it Bryce or Dalton, spreading around their targets to include Hurst some more, which I'm fine with.

Hurst is an average TE and there is nothing wrong with that.  Send him out on routes and sure, give him 5 or so targets a game through the QB working their progressions and finding him when open and it's the best read.

But Hurst is NOT the type of player that you purposefully call specific plays for where they're the #1 option unless there is some serious mis-match with the opponents not good at covering the TE position, which is what the OP was calling for.

There is a significant difference between the two and it's not just semantics, I'm fully on board with what you're saying, but not the OP.  You're acting like I'm saying we should ignore Hurst or keep him on the bench, but I'm not, I'm just saying he should never be the first read or have a play called to purposefully try and get him the ball over one of our WRs outside of specific matchup situations.

Sure, maybe a play or two a game because the defense is ignoring him, dial up a play call for Hurst.  But outside of that, he's not a good enough player to make him the first or second read when we have Thielen, Chark, Mingo on the field, and I could even make the argument that Laviska should also take priority over him due to him being so much better at making plays happen once he has the ball in his hands than Hurst does.

We do need to get the ball in Laviska's hand several times a game.  He is our most explosive player.  

[CRA]

13 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

No, the OP is not talking about spreading the ball around, he's talking about the coaches drawing up specific plays for Hurst to be the first and main target, which I'd be very strongly against.

 

Depends who your opponent is.  That's game planning 101.   There most definitely should be plays at some point where a team sucks at defending the TE and you have plays where your TE is read 1 to take advantage of that with a play call. 

[Waldo]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

No, the OP is not talking about spreading the ball around, he's talking about the coaches drawing up specific plays for Hurst to be the first and main target, which I'd be very strongly against.

You're talking about the QB, whether it Bryce or Dalton, spreading around their targets to include Hurst some more, which I'm fine with.

Hurst is an average TE and there is nothing wrong with that.  Send him out on routes and sure, give him 5 or so targets a game through the QB working their progressions and finding him when open and it's the best read.

But Hurst is NOT the type of player that you purposefully call specific plays for where they're the #1 option unless there is some serious mis-match with the opponents not good at covering the TE position, which is what the OP was calling for.

There is a significant difference between the two, I'm fully on board with what you're saying, but not the OP.  You're acting like I'm saying we should ignore Hurst or keep him on the bench, but I'm not, I'm just saying he should never be the first read or have a play called to purposefully try and get him the ball over one of our WRs outside of specific matchup situations.

Sure, maybe a play or two a game because the defense is ignoring him, dial up a play call for Hurst.  But outside of that, he's not a good enough player to make him the first or second read when we have Thielen, Chark, Mingo on the field, and I could even make the argument that Laviska should also take priority over him due to him being so much better at making plays happen once he has the ball in his hands than Hurst does.

I said a few plays. OP said 'incorporated'. That is to combine not substitute by definition. That is what the OP said 'purposely incorporate'. 

I am also talking about the coaching calls which I assumed were calling the plays that have those reads preestablished. The QB just goes through the called reads on that play or audibles to the next set? Right? Coaches to QB who then works the play or audibles the called play. I am talking about the playcalling not spreading the ball around enough in the passing or running game. 

Both Thielin and Hurst are average at this point. It doesn't matter who is better, just who can get open and spreading the ball around helps that usually. Kind of like a half way effective running game.

Spread the damn ball around. To everyone. Fug their skills or ability. Just go spread the ball around because this team doesn't have anyone that can justify not doing so and it would be helping itself if it did. 

[Paa Langfart]

4 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

Because he's... Hayden Hurst?!?!

Solid TE, but he's not a player that you are specifically calling plays to get the ball for.  Particularly not when we also have Thielen who plays a similar role of the short to intermediate routes, check downs, over the middle stuff, but is better at it than Hurst.

I am no football guru but wouldn't spreading the ball around, like to Hurst a few times a game instead of a laser focus on one guy, spread out the opposing D a bit more keeping them more off balance ?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Paa Langfart

[Khyber53]

Double H certainly isn't Triple H.

[tukafan21]

21 minutes ago, Paa Langfart said:

I am no football guru but wouldn't spreading the ball around, like to Hurst a few times a game instead of a laser focus on one guy, spread out the opposing D a bit more keeping them more off balance ?

Again, people are conflating "spreading the ball around" with "calling plays for Hurst"

There are only a VERY small group of TEs in the NFL where teams regularly call plays that are meant to target the TE on the first read, without counting, I'm guessing there are only 5 or 6 TE's in the league right now that have teams who regularly call plays to specifically target their TE throughout the game (and "regularly" means 5+ play calls a game that the TE is the first and main read on the play).

That doesn't count teams like the Patriots whose offense is somewhat built around regular TE targets (and even then, they regularly rotate which of their TE's is the #1 target on the play) and it doesn't count the small handful of plays that every team calls in games where their TE has a specific matchup advantage over the defense.

"spreading the ball around" is on the QB, not the coaches calling plays (again, not counting taking advantage of specific matchups on a game-by-game or even play-by-play basis).

Hurst isn't a good enough TE to warrant more than 2 or 3 specific play calls meant to go to him a game, and even that might be more than he's worth, and that is no knock on him, it's just the way the game is played and that he's not an elite TE in today's NFL.  

Yes, spread the ball around to all our pass catchers, Hurst included.

But no, do not start calling more specific plays for Hurst, he's not THAT guy and it would just be horrible play calling to purposefully be trying to target him as the first read any more than he already is.

Hurst is NOT Greg Olsen, he's not a guy we're going to gameplan around getting the ball to and scheme open.  He's a nice solid TE who will get his targets from the QB working through his progressions and finding him when open, and that's perfectly fine.

Edited September 26, 2023 by tukafan21

[Paa Langfart]

33 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Hurst isn't a good enough TE to warrant more than 2 or 3 specific play calls meant to go to him a game,

yeah ok right.

[top dawg]

2 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

Again, people are conflating "spreading the ball around" with "calling plays for Hurst"

There are only a VERY small group of TEs in the NFL where teams regularly call plays that are meant to target the TE on the first read, without counting, I'm guessing there are only 5 or 6 TE's in the league right now that have teams who regularly call plays to specifically target their TE throughout the game (and "regularly" means 5+ play calls a game that the TE is the first and main read on the play).

That doesn't count teams like the Patriots whose offense is somewhat built around regular TE targets (and even then, they regularly rotate which of their TE's is the #1 target on the play) and it doesn't count the small handful of plays that every team calls in games where their TE has a specific matchup advantage over the defense.

"spreading the ball around" is on the QB, not the coaches calling plays (again, not counting taking advantage of specific matchups on a game-by-game or even play-by-play basis).

Hurst isn't a good enough TE to warrant more than 2 or 3 specific play calls meant to go to him a game, and even that might be more than he's worth, and that is no knock on him, it's just the way the game is played and that he's not an elite TE in today's NFL.  

Yes, spread the ball around to all our pass catchers, Hurst included.

But no, do not start calling more specific plays for Hurst, he's not THAT guy and it would just be horrible play calling to purposefully be trying to target him as the first read any more than he already is.

Hurst is NOT Greg Olsen, he's not a guy we're going to gameplan around getting the ball to and scheme open.  He's a nice solid TE who will get his targets from the QB working through his progressions and finding him when open, and that's perfectly fine.

With our lack of offensive creativity (no pun intended, however appropriate), we need to try everything we can. We'll just have to disagree that Thielen should always be the first read on short to intermediate passes. We don't have Chase, Higgins and Boyd. Neither do we have Kyle Pitts. We need a multi-pronged passing attack that incorporates all the sure-handed, experienced vets. You have to keep the opposition guessing to be most effective, especially when you're trying to control the ball and move the chains. To do anything less is just insane within the context of our football team. If we weren't going to use Hurst, then we shouldn't have signed him. We could do the same things with what we already had. Hurst was the play maker in the first game, and the ball was moving effectively when he was involved.