Hurney and Fox still "have confidence in Jake."

[raleigh-panther]

sorry, but that's an awful way of looking at things.

if your goal is to just be better than a total disaster then you are never going to get anywhere unless you are just lucky. to be the best you have to try and be the best. you can't get there hoping to just be better than the worst of your competition.so you would never try to make things better because you are afraid of failing? sounds like a john fox disciple to me.

seriously....making the mistake in the first place would be bad and grounds for considering dismissal. their refusal to admit it, that their confidence in jake was misplaced....give them the boot.

i don't care about their past successes....thats what they were supposed to have. it's the boneheaded errors that would decide your fate.

they need to hire a six sigma black belt to come in and fix things.

lol

QFT

...maybe then can find some Southern Baptist Minister to come in and lay hands on Jerry Richardson to 'HEAL'.

He needs help to exorcise the Fox/Hurney demons.

[panthers55]

I expect no matter who the coach is, they will have Jake back. He is a veteran presence who has had a bad year after 6 or 7 of good play. There is no guarantee he won't come out next year and be the Jake of old. You definitely don't let Moore go but you keep all your possibilitites open. The starting decision will be make next year and if we are smart we will bring in 5 or 6 guys to compete. At that point the best guy will play. If Moore wants to be that guy he has 2 games this year and the off season to show he is the best guy on the roster.

But all the Jake haters will likely have to worry all offseason about who the starter will be since he may not get released. And we will read countless threads worried that if Jake is here, he will be the starter as long as Fox and Hurney are here. I think it will be a wide open competition next year no matter who the coach is..

[Davidson Deac II]

Fwiw, I don't think we will make any deals for a 1st round pick, but we might try to bring in a free agent to compete with Moore and Delhomme. Maybe Jason Campbell or Tavaris Jackson might be signed.

[rayzor]

the panthers are actually one of the better teams in the league about having guys they drafted stay and fill the starting roster spots. very few leagues have that much success. FA acquisitions ..... for every chris harris there is a landon johnson. very few teams have consistent success in the FA market. no excuses there, i want to be the best but it's pretty much a crap shoot.

they have had successes and have done a good job most of the time but what my major beef with them is the inability or lack of desire to fix a few glaring problems. more than that....they wasted a lot of money and hurt the team by thinking short term. they gambled on some things because they knew that they were fighting for their jobs. it started after the '07 season, imo. going into '08 they did pretty well...it's what they did after the'08 season that really screwed them over.

very few businesses would keep employees after blowing things like that.

i have said it before....i'm not going to celebrate their successes because that is what they are supposed to have. they are supposed to make the right calls. it's when they screw things up that they have to be held accountable. injuries hurt this season but management of the team hurt worse. they put themselves in a situation that everything had to work perfectly. they had no margin for error personnel-wise. they built a house of cards because that was all they had left after they made some gambles. the gambles didn't pay off and the house of cards collapsed.

they wasted millions of dollars and backed the team into a bad situation that they couldn't get themselves out of. you don't reward that and you don't overlook it because of past successes. you have to have someone in there who is going to have not just a higher success rate but a lower fail rate or at least a less costly fail rate. i don't subscribe to the "better the devil you know than the devil you don't know" philosophy. always be looking for the better option and always be willing to go after it. you are making a risk either way...better to err on the side of progress than the status quo.

you remain loyal to those that are helping you succeed now and who will help you in the future. as soon as someone shows that they can't or aren't likley to help you in the future....you move on. you give them a nice bouquet of flowers and a gold watch and tell them thanks for all they have done.

it's just business.

I will tell you why Hurney is horrible because you do not understand.

50.7% of the players he drafted in the past eight years are still on the team (33/65).

If you take out the last three years where the majority of players are still in rookie contacts, that numbers falls to 26.8% (11/41).

11 players of those still on the team from Hurney's drafts the past eight years are starters. 11. Hurney has drafted 11 starters in 8 years. Out of 65 draft selections, 11 are starters on our team.

Now lets look at free agency.

Good things:

Tyler Brayton.

Signing Jake Delhomme in the first place.

Na'il Diggs.

Getting Chris Harris (was a trade, I know, but I'll put it here.)

Bad things:

Kemo's inflated contract.

Jake's new contract.

Mike Wahle.

Keyshawn Johnson.

Ken Lucas.

Letting Spoon go.

Letting Moose go years ago.

Not pursuing a backup WR this past off season.

Thinking that Carter and Colbert were good enough to be a number 2 WR for that painful period of time.

Letting all O-Line depth go in one off-season.

Damione Lewis' over sized contract.

Landon Johnson.

Crippling our cap to the point where we can't even pursue mid-level free agents.

Your turn to say why he isn't so bad.

[Pimpdaddy]

Don't assume my entire opinion on the matter based off of one post. I have said before that it's not just that he is better than a train wreck. I believe he has done a pretty damn good job although he has made mistakes. Most GM's do make mistakes though.

Edit: I think the point I am trying to make is that I know it is possible to improve at GM because Hurney certainly isn't the best, but we can't just go fire him because he isn't perfect and HOPE that we can find someone better. I'm waiting for some names to be thrown out for who would be replacing him.

I am not completely against getting rid of Hurney, but I want to know who we would be targeting as a replacement first. Give me some names to think about.

Hey...Matt Millen is available... Hurneys smartest moves have been brilliant but his failures sure suck bad.... If he could cut the fckups in half we wouldnt be in this predicament.... but onward.

My game watching routine will definitely change if Jake takes the field next year. I'll DVR all the games and fast forward thru all the offensive plays...

[scpanther22]

I wonder how people will act when fox is fired and Hurney is back?

[rayzor]

I wonder how people will act when fox is fired and Hurney is back?

if hurney is the one pulling the plug...i'm fine with it. i'd say he bought himself some more time.

[PanthersFanNY]

You make some good points but first two things:

1. Don't just provide me with his numbers about starters he has drafted in the last 8 years and all that. Provide me with the exact same stats with the rest of the league to compare.

Not many GMs have been with the same team for 8 years, so you could get a league average or something but I'm not going to go through the draft history for the last 8 years for 32 teams. I'm smart enough to realize that 11 starters out of 65 draftees is terrible for somebody who gets paid millions to find talent.

I think 11 is pretty good considering how you put it. That means that BESIDES people still on their rookie contracts (off the top of my head 5 starters are still on their rookie contracts I think) there are 11 starters that STAYED! This doesn't mean there have only been 11 starters drafted. Some have left to free agency correct? Did you account for that in your provided stats? No.

That isn't what it means at all. From 2002 to 2009, Hurney has drafted 11 total starters. This includes people on their rookie contracts.

And what good is drafting people if you can't keep them on the team? Anyway, there are only two that are starting somewhere: Witherspoon and Hangartner. Three if you count Omiyale (is he still starting dimbee?) and he was undrafted. So even if you count that, it hardly matters. Include those players and Hurney has drafted/brought in undrafted 14 players.

And that's from 5 years worth of drafting, because you are exempting rookie contracts. So 11 starters that have not only been drafted, but that have also stayed in 5 years of drafting. Doesn't sound too bad, but I would need to research the rest of the league before really judging.

Not true. There are 8 starters from the first five years of his drafts still on the team. 11 is the total over 8 years (including rookies and everything.

Also that means that what, only 6 of our starters weren't drafted here? Not bad also it seems like on first guess.

No. Players not drafted by Hurney that start: Delhomme, Hoover, Moose, Steve Smith, Vincent, Brayton, Lewis, Kemo, Diggs, Harris.

2. Your list of good and bad things, just remember that it is easier to think of those bad things off the top of your head more than the good ones because the bad moves make us angry, but we really don't get too excited when they make a good move because we take it for granted. I'm sure if you went back and looked at all the moves they have made closely, the good list would get a lot longer.

No, really, name some good moves that I missed from the past 8 years. Seriously try to.

[AceMan]

Cutting Delhomme will be the only way to get a breathe of fresh air. Crap like this is going to spew all the time until Delhomme or Fox is gone. That's why I think JR will make the move to get rid of him. The fanbase can't take anymore crap like this. Jake is never coming back. He has been bad for 1 and 1/2 seasons. He was only average before so there isn't a real positive for him "returning to normal". Also, Jake's "intangibles" are overrated...Now is the time to upgrade.

[MaineManPanther]

I will tell you why Hurney is horrible because you do not understand.

50.7% of the players he drafted in the past eight years are still on the team (33/65).

If you take out the last three years where the majority of players are still in rookie contacts, that numbers falls to 26.8% (11/41).

11 players of those still on the team from Hurney's drafts the past eight years are starters. 11. Hurney has drafted 11 starters in 8 years. Out of 65 draft selections, 11 are starters on our team.

Now lets look at free agency.

Good things:

Tyler Brayton.

Signing Jake Delhomme in the first place.

Na'il Diggs.

Getting Chris Harris (was a trade, I know, but I'll put it here.)

Bad things:

Kemo's inflated contract.

Jake's new contract.

Mike Wahle.

Keyshawn Johnson.

Ken Lucas.

Letting Spoon go.

Letting Moose go years ago.

Not pursuing a backup WR this past off season.

Thinking that Carter and Colbert were good enough to be a number 2 WR for that painful period of time.

Letting all O-Line depth go in one off-season.

Damione Lewis' over sized contract.

Landon Johnson.

Crippling our cap to the point where we can't even pursue mid-level free agents.

Your turn to say why he isn't so bad.

Some problems. This mean nothing if it's not compared to the rest of the league. What are the average for NFL teams after eight years?

You are judging based on who is still on the team, Which means good players/starters that were drafted on this team but left don't count.

This leaves out player like Hargantar, Ricky Manning, Evan Mathis etc.

[PanthersFanNY]

Some problems. This mean nothing if it's not compared to the rest of the league. What are the average for NFL teams after eight years?

You are judging based on who is still on the team, Which means good players/starters that were drafted on this team but left don't count.

This leaves out player like Hargantar, Ricky Manning, Evan Mathis etc.

If you read the last post I made, I included starters who left. A whopping two players Hurney drafted are starting around the league. Three if you count Omiyale who was undrafted.

Mathis isn't starting and while Ricky Manning is currently starting, he is with the Florida Tuskers of the UFL. I don't think that counts.

And I can't believe that some of you need comparison stats to tell you that 1/6 good drafted players is bad.

[Hairless Cat]

un friggin believable. I can not actually cant believe that any of management believes in delhomme anymore.

I think its got to be all BS hes feeding the press so he doesnt tip his hand that in the off season hes going to desperately be trying to find a decent qb for this team.

[MaineManPanther]

If you read the last post I made, I included starters who left. A whopping two players Hurney drafted are starting around the league. Three if you count Omiyale who was undrafted.

Mathis isn't starting and while Ricky Manning is currently starting, he is with the Florida Tuskers of the UFL. I don't think that counts.

And I can't believe that some of you need comparison stats to tell you that 1/6 good drafted players is bad.

Mathis is a starter

Hangartner is a starter

Spoon is a starter

Ricky was a starter here

Jovan Haye is a starter

Foster was a starter here.

Your also counting 2009 players who are in there first year. You need to give players a year or two before judging the draft. For example Kali, Williams, Davis (started in one), all didnt play much. Those three now are arubaly the very best at there postion

You are also going on that every player needs to be a starter to be a sucess.

When tons of players are drafted for backup and special teams. For example would you consider Dante Wesley, Jeff Schrawtz, and Mackney Beardua, bad picks?

http://moondogsports.com/2009/04/25/does-nfl-draft-success-translate-into-victories/

This judges a few random teams over a five year span 2004-2008. There stastics are based on who's till on the active roster

If youll look, one or two have 70 percent. While sevral of them have 49- 52 percent on the active roster. And this is only five years, add three years and the statics are going to be even lower. And if we even go deeper no doubt for the number of starters is going to be signifacnlty lower.

Notably the Patriots and Steelers, renowed for there GM and system. Have only 50 percent. Agian this is only after 5 years, thier number are proably even less now.

[Snake]

I wonder how people will act when fox is fired and Hurney is back?

Fox is not gonna be fired so we dont have to worry about that situation. :thumbsup: