Hey guys, it's 2011 not 2015.

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

ngl, I'm honestly impressed by the energy you two have to keep this going the entire day. Ole boys still got some fight in them.

Mr Scott and I save up for a yearly go at it. 

[ForJimmy]

31 minutes ago, CRA said:

True.  You give any coach a Payton Manning and they are going to win a lot. 

Cam is basically a unique player in NFL history though.  Because what made him a dominant QB was his running and how he ran.   And everyone wants to compare him to elite passers in a league designed for them.  

Belichick was 5-13 with Bledsoe those first 2 seasons in New England.  That’s not playing well. 

Tom Brady built a dynasty.  He also made Belichick the best coach.   And the league molded around Brady. 
 

 

I stand corrected on the Bledsoe era. I thought he was their coach when he lost to Favre, but that was Parcells. You could definitely make the argument that Brady made Bill B look a lot better than he is, especially after Brady won again with the Bucs.

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

I mean, you don’t actually address any post made to you.  Has Bill been carried by his QB? 

and you just ignore and paint everything in a Ron is bad context.  Ron drafted a QB.  Started him as a rookie.  Cam grew.  Got better.  They won in year 3.  They were going to win games as Cam and Luke developed. 

lot of luck in sports.  But yeah, it’s a talent game.   And Carolina hit a long stretch where too few did the lifting.  It becomes a problem when they can’t in games. 

Ron isn’t winning in Washington because he doesn’t have the talent where he needs it.  Like basically all coaches in the tier he lives in. It’s a talent game.   And to suggest Ron has had total control in shitshow DC is a tough sell.   Ron is there because he is a good coach.  And the shitshow needed a man of his character to help in tough times.   And he has done it all while whipping cancer.  He is a bad mofo.  One of the good ones in this league.  

Rivera was given total control when he took the job. Look it up.

And yes, I'd say Belichick was carried by Brady. That doesn't make Rivera a better coach though, especially since he was carried as well (already pointed out by someone else).

That's not the only place where you're short circuiting your own argument though...

You say Ron isn't winning because of talent, but not only do good coaches maximize talent, but Ron is in charge of the talent. Hell, he even pushed out a rising star in the front office in favor of his own guy.

[CRA]

54 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Rivera was given total control when he took the job. Look it up.

And yes, I'd say Belichick was carried by Brady. That doesn't make Rivera a better coach though, especially since he was carried as well (already pointed out by someone else).

That's not the only place where you're short circuiting your own argument though...

You say Ron isn't winning because of talent, but not only do good coaches maximize talent, but Ron is in charge of the talent. Hell, he even pushed out a rising star in the front office in favor of his own guy.

Oh, well if THE Dan Synder said so. 

I’m not shorting circuiting my argument.  My argument is and has always been the NFL is largely a player/talent league.   You need a certain caliber HC and then it becomes about the talent.  Ron and Fox were both good coaches.  They checked the box.  Then it became about getting them the right talent.  And it’s not a science and a lot of luck comes into play, 

Good coaches maximize talent.  Ron doesn’t.  Because of Cam.  A dude who broke records day one and will hold some for potentially decades.   So let’s look elsewhere at some bigger names Ron had come in from elsewhere on O.  3 biggest names I can think of would be the following and they all trend the same way. 

Olsen -  became a multi Pro Bowler in Carolina 

Tolbert - became a multi pro bowler in Carolina 

Ginn Jr - bust and who had the best window of his career in Carolina 

They all spent years elsewhere and looked their best here. 

Ron needed a better GM.  Just like Fox needed one.  Panthers gave them both a sportswriter who made life easy.   That’s an ownership issue too.    

GM IMO has been THE biggest issue over the last 2 decades.  And then you have to get into ownership.  Both of which have been issues since the window Richardson pulled out the pie chart.   Contracts, management of draft picks, and free agency.  That’s where I look more so than who stood on the sidelines.    Rhule excluded.  He didn’t check the box.    Talking Fox/Rivera. 

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, CRA said:

Oh, well if THE Dan Synder said so. 

I’m not shorting circuiting my argument.  My argument is and has always been the NFL is largely a player/talent league.   You need a certain caliber HC and then it becomes about the talent.  Ron and Fox were both good coaches.  They checked the box.  Then it became about getting them the right talent.  And it’s not a science and a lot of luck comes into play, 

Good coaches maximize talent.  Ron doesn’t.  Because of Cam.  A dude who broke records day one and will hold some for potentially decades.   So let’s look elsewhere at some bigger names Ron had come in from elsewhere on O.  3 biggest names I can think of would be the following and they all trend the same way. 

Olsen -  became a multi Pro Bowler in Carolina 

Tolbert - became a multi pro bowler in Carolina 

Ginn Jr - bust and who had the best window of his career in Carolina 

They all spent years elsewhere and looked their best here. 

Ron needed a better GM.  Just like Fox needed one.  Panthers gave them both a sportswriter who made life easy.   That’s an ownership issue too.    

GM IMO has been THE biggest issue. Specifically management of resources and free agency.   Carolina largely had the coaching staff be better than we have been.  You can disagree. 

Everybody's fault but...the head coach's

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Everybody's fault but...the head coach's

I mean, I have acknowledged Ron was flawed.  Same with Fox.  Again, flawed but good coaches vs their peers 

It’s a bigger convo than them.  But that gets in the way of your Ron fixation.

Last 2 decades.  HCs.  GMs.  Owners.  That makes your front office.  Weakest link of that trio over the last 2 decades isn’t the coaches. 

Fox and Ron are better at their jobs than Hurney and Gettlemen.   

[Mr. Scot]

54 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, I have acknowledged Ron was flawed.  Same with Fox.  Again, flawed but good coaches vs their peers 

It’s a bigger convo than them.  But that gets in the way of your Ron fixation.

Last 2 decades.  HCs.  GMs.  Owners.  That makes your front office.  Weakest link of that trio over the last 2 decades isn’t the coaches. 

Fox and Ron are better at their jobs than Hurney and Gettlemen.   

Ron fixation...yeah

I'm not the one trying (unsuccessfully) to argue that Rivera could be trusted to develop a young quarterback.

[CRA]

11 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Ron fixation...yeah

I'm not the one trying (unsuccessfully) to argue that Rivera could be trusted to develop a young quarterback.

again, you keep going back to some argument you are manifesting.....after I called you out for claiming Cam Newton had one good season and just a bunch of decent or mediocre ones.  Then you have altered you slowly altered your language about all those decent/mediocre ones because it was absurd. 

Ron Rivera is a defensive coach.  They hire that out.  Which is what Ron did. And Cam Newton is a borderline HOFer.  And if hadn't blown his shoulder out in 2016 likely would have been a  HOFer eventually.  

and yeah, you got a Ron fixation.  Which means you are so fixated on bashing him you would say stuff like Cam only had decent/mediocre seasons outside of 2015 all as a means to bash Ron. 

Again, Fox and Ron were good enough.  Easier to do worse than better than them.  League history shows that.  Biggest problem in Carolina was the owner/GM.  Again, that's been the biggest problem from look at the pie chart moment forward.   NFL is a talent league. 

 

[Mr. Scot]

19 minutes ago, CRA said:

again, you keep going back to some argument you are manifesting.....after I called you out for claiming Cam Newton had one good season and just a bunch of decent or mediocre ones.  Then you have altered you slowly altered your language about all those decent/mediocre ones because it was absurd. 

Ron Rivera is a defensive coach.  They hire that out.  Which is what Ron did. And Cam Newton is a borderline HOFer.  And if hadn't blown his shoulder out in 2016 likely would have been a  HOFer eventually.  

and yeah, you got a Ron fixation.  Which means you are so fixated on bashing him you would say stuff like Cam only had decent/mediocre seasons outside of 2015 all as a means to bash Ron. 

Again, Fox and Ron were good enough.  Easier to do worse than better than them.  League history shows that.  Biggest problem in Carolina was the owner/GM.  Again, that's been the biggest problem from look at the pie chart moment forward.   NFL is a talent league. 

Nice attempt at revision

My original statement was in response to someone suggesting that the 2011 staff was equal to the current one. I pointed out that I would not want Ron Rivera in charge of developing Bryce Young.

(pretty sure most people here wouldn't, especially not over the staff we have now)

That was when you came in with the ridiculous argument that Rivera actually developed Newton rather than just taking advantage of his talents.

Yeah, sure

Again, the fact that we had one great season (my actual word) a couple of good ones and a bunch of decent to mediocre ones with Newton starting isn't an opinion. It's a matter of record. As mentioned before, the same description applies to Luke Kuechly, Greg Olsen and any other player from that period.

We changed GMs. Hell, we even changed owners.

The one constant was Ron Rivera.

Your primary evidence of "development" was that they built a college style scheme around Newton to "let him be special". As pointed out, that's not really a recipe for "development", it actually fits my description far better.

It wasn't until Norv Turner got here that anybody tried to actually turn Newton into a pro quarterback. By that time it was too late because too much damage had been done, but even then we saw evidence of what could have been had Rivera chosen that approach from the beginning.

The notion that this method would have somehow kept him from being himself or maximizing his talents is honestly pretty ridiculous

Now Ron's in Washington with full control (another fact you tried to deny) and once again on the verge of getting fired.

I suppose if he does, you can lobby to bring him back so he can help in the development our young franchise quarterback.

Me? I think I'll stick with the guys with got.

Alluded before to your own admission that you sometimes like to defend goofball arguments just for the hell of it.

Gotta say, this one's a doozy

Edited August 17, 2023 by Mr. Scot

[CRA]

23 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Nice attempt at revision

My original statement was in response to someone suggesting that the 2011 staff was equal to the current one. I pointed out that I would not want To Rivera being in charge of developing Bryce Young. Pretty sure most people here wouldn't, especially not over the staff we have now.

That was when you came in with the ridiculous argument that Rivera actually developed Newton rather than just taking advantage of his talents.

Ron Rivera football in Carolina was about playing to Cam's strengths.   And Cam Newton won rookie of the year, went to multiple Pro Bowls, and was league MVP because a coach was willing to do so.  Cam Newton was a success in Carolina.  That happened under Ron.  The #1 overall pick worked out in the environment Ron built for him.  And you remain invested on bashing Ron to the point of absurdity. 

Which again, is why YOU will make crazy statement like Cam only had decent/mediocre years in Carolina outside of 2015.  That's the Ron fixation.  Me?  I got no problem acknowledging his flaws.  He isn't my going to be whipping boy for all the flaws with the organization though. 

my first post to you in this thread simply acknowledged that Frank has never developed a #1 overall type QB investment as you were chalking him up as obviously better at it.  Ron's only history of it worked out pretty well. 

You keep posting that I think Ron is some QB guru and technical developer.  No, all that is simply hired out.  Said Ron was willing to let Cam be Cam and devoted his job to that.  Which was a risky move. And that's a massive reason why Cam Newton worked out.  Because of what Ron was willing to do and create here.  An environment for one of the unique QBs in NFL history.  An anomoly at the position.  And it worked out pretty good.  Best window of our history.  Shame you didn't enjoy more. 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

Ron Rivera football in Carolina was about playing to Cam's strengths.   And Cam Newton won rookie of the year, went to multiple Pro Bowls, and was league MVP because a coach was willing to do so.  Cam Newton was a success in Carolina.  That happened under Ron.  The #1 overall pick worked out in the environment Ron built for him.  And you remain invested on bashing Ron to the point of absurdity. 

Which again, is why YOU will make crazy statement like Cam only had decent/mediocre years in Carolina outside of 2015.  That's the Ron fixation.  Me?  I got no problem acknowledging his flaws.  He isn't my going to be whipping boy for all the flaws with the organization though. 

my first post to you in this thread simply acknowledged that Frank has never developed a #1 overall type QB investment as you were chalking him up as obviously better at it.  Ron's only history of it worked out pretty well. 

I mean I can keep posting the same stuff and you can ignore it and project what you claim I think.   Cam went to a great place.  Because he went to a coach that would cater and play to Cam's strengths.  That's why Cam worked in the NFL.  That's Ron. And most coaches in the NFL wouldn't of done that and a lot would have never risked trying.  Because they would have wanted Cam to fit into their box and wouldn't think it could be done.   

You keep posting that I think Ron is some QB guru and developer.  I never say that.  Said Ron was willing to let Cam be Cam and devoted his job to that.  Which was a risky move. And that's a massive reason why Cam Newton worked out. 

Ah, yes the old tactic of accusing your opponent of what you're actually doing...solid

Multiple people on this site have said and agree that Rivera's handling of Newton actually shortened his career rather than maximizing it.

Your suggestion that having him in a pro-system would have somehow negated his talents is pretty silly.

[Sgt Schultz]

Glad this rekindled itself.  I was afraid I was going to have to chime in and stir the pot.

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, Sgt Schultz said:

Glad this rekindled itself.  I was afraid I was going to have to chime in and stir the pot.

You know nooothingk 🫥

[CRA]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Ah, yes the old tactic of accusing your opponent of what you're actually doing...solid

Multiple people on this site have said and agree that Rivera's handling of Newton actually shortened his career rather than maximizing it.

Your suggestion that having him in a pro-system would have somehow negated his talents is pretty silly.

I can find people that say all sorts of stuff.    Cam could go today and rush for 1000 yards.   He didn't get worn down.  He was designed for it.  It's what he was.  He busted his shoulder up in 2016 on fluke play and couldn't throw after that.   I mean his career is over.  We know what happened. 

Cam wouldn't have been special in a pro system.  He was special here.   Again, he was an anomaly.  A pro system totally negates what made him unique and special in the NFL.  

if you didn't want to go on that ride because you dislike what that ride is? Cool.  Some people just like the game the way Tom Brady plays it.  That's fine.   Then you go get players that do that.    But Ron drafted Cam.   Again, it's a shame you didn't enjoy the best window in history.    

and you got you pro system guy in Bryce.  It will be a different path.  Because we will play to what he should do well.  Hopefully, Frank can make a world he thrives in too.