Hey guys, it's 2011 not 2015.

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

All these coaches have had success even when you remove one key player. I’m simply removing Cam from Ron’s coaching career.  It just proves that Ron didn’t make Cam as much as Cam made Ron look better than he was in my opinion.

Frank isn’t an elite coach. He is the right coach to develop a young QB like Young. He is more of the right coach at the right time (or Reich coach if you want a good dad joke).  What excites me about Reich is the staff he has surrounded himself with this year. Caldwell, Capers, Brown, Evero, McCown, Campen etc are a great combination of old and new coaches. 

Pretty much.

I'd add that saying we had one great season, a couple of good ones and a bunch of mediocre ones in Newton's Panthers tenure isn't "Cam slander". Nor is it "Ron slander". It's fact.

The same applies to Luke Kuechly, Greg Olsen and a bunch of other good players. Only the total number of seasons is different.

The common denominator? Ron Rivera.

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

If you want to go by math, remember George Seifert had the best win-oss record in history. How'd that turn out?

Players and coaches get better and then get worse if they hang around long enough.  And players make or break them all.  Especially at the pro level. 

And that’s a different convo.  I mean, one day it would be stupid to hire Belichick.  That won’t change what he was. 

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Pretty much.

I'd add that saying we had one great season, a couple of good ones and a bunch of mediocre ones in Newton's Panthers tenure isn't "Cam slander". Nor is it "Ron slander". It's fact.

The same applies to Luke Kuechly, Greg Olsen and a bunch of other good players. Only the total number of seasons is different.

The common denominator? Ron Rivera.

Well, you at least morphed them up from mediocre/average to good. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

Players and coaches get better and then get worse if they hang around long enough.  And players make or break them all.  Especially at the pro level. 

And that’s a different convo.  I mean, one day it would be stupid to hire Belichick.  That won’t change what he was. 

Not as stupid as it would be to leave a rookie quarterback's development in the hands of Ron Rivera.

That's especially true when we're not talking about a smallish quarterback whose durability is a concern vs a huge physical freak like Newton.

[KSpan]

30 minutes ago, CRA said:

Yeah, but numbers of who is better and worse aren’t comparable groups.  One group is much larger.  The worse one. 

it’s like talking QBs.  It’s hard to find a good QB.  Let alone great or HOF caliber. 

Without Ron being carried by the multiple generational talents he enjoyed during his time with the Panthers, and Carolina's teams some major talent during those years, his numbers would look much worse and he would not have gotten a chance to be mediocre for 11 years. The wild season-to-season results are the reflection of who he is as a coach IMO, and that is strikingly average.

[OUCPFL]

16 minutes ago, CRA said:

Players and coaches get better and then get worse if they hang around long enough.  And players make or break them all.  Especially at the pro level. 

And that’s a different convo.  I mean, one day it would be stupid to hire Belichick.  That won’t change what he was. 

Getting close to that now as he hasn't done well without Brady. 

[CRA]

34 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Without Ron being carried by the multiple generational talents he enjoyed during his time with the Panthers, and Carolina's teams some major talent during those years, his numbers would look much worse and he would not have gotten a chance to be mediocre for 11 years. The wild season-to-season results are the reflection of who he is as a coach IMO, and that is strikingly average.

Every great coach is carried by players at the NFL level.  Good ones too.    

Carolina's biggest issue is their talent was always thin.   Better to rage about the GMs in Carolina. 

[CRA]

9 seasons as a NFL HC

72-74

3 winning seasons

1-2 in the playoffs 

NFL is about talent.  It makes or breaks the majority of coaches.  Especially, where you do and don't have the talent.   That's Bill Belichick in the NFL when Tom Brady (the GOAT at the most important position in the NFL) isn't his starting QB.   

then there are the incompetent and bad coaches.  Or those that aren't ready to lead a bunch of highly paid athletes.  They generally stand out in any situation.  Coaching at the NFL level is a people business in many aspects. 

Biggest problem for Carolina really post pie chart lockout talk.....has been the GM spot.  Fox and Rivera were both good enough.  Rhule wasn't.  Frank is basically the opposite of the coin and an offensive Fox/Rivera.  So hopefully he will be good enough too. 

[KSpan]

14 minutes ago, CRA said:

Every great coach is carried by players at the NFL level.  Good ones too.    

Carolina's biggest issue is their talent was always thin.   Better to rage about the GMs in Carolina. 

No one is raging about anything and, as I said before, Ron dropped the ball on his own in plenty of ways and we saw the team come out flat and unprepared year in and year out. It is what it is.

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

9 seasons as a NFL HC

72-74

3 winning seasons

1-2 in the playoffs 

NFL is about talent.  It makes or breaks the majority of coaches.  Especially, where you do and don't have the talent.   That's Bill Belichick in the NFL when Tom Brady (the GOAT at the most important position in the NFL) isn't his starting QB.   

then there are the incompetent and bad coaches.  Or those that aren't ready to lead a bunch of highly paid athletes.  They generally stand out in any situation.  Coaching at the NFL level is a people business in many aspects. 

Biggest problem for Carolina really post pie chart lockout talk.....has been the GM spot.  Fox and Rivera were both good enough.  Rhule wasn't.  Frank is basically the opposite of the coin and an offensive Fox/Rivera.  So hopefully he will be good enough too. 

Except all of Ron's winning seasons came with one GM, and then once he got a GM that was more willing to do things his way, he didn't have anymore.

Now he's got full control and brought over the same GM he had for the majority of his time here in a high level personnel role.

How's that going?

[CRA]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Except all of Ron's winning seasons came with one GM, and then once he got a GM that was more willing to do things his way, he didn't have anymore.

Now he's got full control and brought over the same GM he had for the majority of his time here in a high level personnel role.

How's that going?

I mean, you don’t actually address any post made to you.  Has Bill been carried by his QB? 

and you just ignore and paint everything in a Ron is bad context.  Ron drafted a QB.  Started him as a rookie.  Cam grew.  Got better.  They won in year 3.  They were going to win games as Cam and Luke developed. 

lot of luck in sports.  But yeah, it’s a talent game.   And Carolina hit a long stretch where too few did the lifting.  It becomes a problem when they can’t in games. 

Ron isn’t winning in Washington because he doesn’t have the talent where he needs it.  Like basically all coaches in the tier he lives in. It’s a talent game.   And to suggest Ron has had total control in shitshow DC is a tough sell.   Ron is there because he is a good coach.  And the shitshow needed a man of his character to help in tough times.   And he has done it all while whipping cancer.  He is a bad mofo.  One of the good ones in this league.  

[ForJimmy]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, you don’t actually address any post made to you.  Has Bill been carried by his QB? 

and you just ignore and paint everything in a Ron is bad context.  Ron drafted a QB.  Started him as a rookie.  Cam grew.  Got better.  They won in year 3.  They were going to win games as Cam and Luke developed. 

The good coaches really shine when they land an elite QB. Look at the Bengals with Burrow, Bills with Allen, and Chiefs with Mahomes. Bill B created a dynasty when he landed Brady (he also had his team playing well with Bledsoe before that). Rivera couldn’t even get back to back winning seasons with Cam, TD, Luke, and Olson. He is looking more like whoever is coaching LAC with Herbert. That’s the big difference to me. Rivera is good at stabilizing bad teams and getting them to respectable/average but he isn’t a coach anyone should really seek out and get excited about. I would be surprised if he lands another HC job once Washington is done with him. DC absolutely, HC I wouldn’t bet on it unless a team is really struggling. 

[CRA]

31 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

The good coaches really shine when they land an elite QB. Look at the Bengals with Burrow, Bills with Allen, and Chiefs with Mahomes. Bill B created a dynasty when he landed Brady (he also had his team playing well with Bledsoe before that). Rivera couldn’t even get back to back winning seasons with Cam, TD, Luke, and Olson. He is looking more like whoever is coaching LAC with Herbert. That’s the big difference to me. Rivera is good at stabilizing bad teams and getting them to respectable/average but he isn’t a coach anyone should really seek out and get excited about. I would be surprised if he lands another HC job once Washington is done with him. DC absolutely, HC I wouldn’t bet on it unless a team is really struggling. 

True.  You give any coach a Payton Manning and they are going to win a lot. 

Cam is basically a unique player in NFL history though.  Because what made him a dominant QB was his running and how he ran.   And everyone wants to compare him to elite passers in a league designed for them.  

Belichick was 5-13 with Bledsoe those first 2 seasons in New England.  That’s not playing well. 

Tom Brady built a dynasty.  He also made Belichick the best coach.   And the league molded around Brady. 
 

 

[Icege]

ngl, I'm honestly impressed by the energy you two have to keep this going the entire day. Ole boys still got some fight in them.