McCall is the NT

[KSpan]

55 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

If you remember Chinn outplayed Simmon their first year in the league.  I wasn't Chinn's fault that he was underutilized in our defense.  Chinn this year will show he's just as good as Simmons.  Most don't give any Carolina players their proper due.  I am not saying Simmons is overrated either I just believe that Chinn is highly underrated. 

While I agree Roy was a Rhule guy you don't normally jettison a player off the 90-man roster unless you are certain someone (McCall) has won the position.  

You appear to think that your takes are more accurate than others.   

What do their rookie years have to do with anything? Besides being irrelevant since Simmons came in behind 2 good safeties (but still started his 2nd year) and Chinn had immediate opportunity, Simmons was/is still an entirely different type of player than Chinn and is just objectively better than Chinn right now. This along with the fact that Denver's defense was 3rd in the league in pts against in 2021 with nearly all of the same 'replaceable players', the year before Evero arrived there, disproves your attempted points.

Does it mean Carolina's players and/or Evero are bad? Not at all - Carolina has some talent and Evero did good work. But the angle that Denver's defense was nothing without Evero and that Carolina's current roster is much better is just inaccurate.

[KSpan]

5 minutes ago, Dragoon11 said:

I tend to agree with you. I understand what the other guy is saying, but here's the deal... coaching matters!!

Rule and company were abysmal. It's a part of Panthers history I wish we could erase.

But, I think with the coaches we have now, you are going to see a vastly different, yet efficient defense. 

It may take a few games for everyone to gel, but with this coaching staff I feel a different vibe.

Of course, we've gotten our hopes up before just to get them crushed. So, lets just watch the preseason, see what the energy of the team is. The best thing about preseason is that by the 2nd or 3rd game you can tell if the players are buying into the program. We'll soon find out.  

If coaching matters is your angle, Denver's defense dropped from 3rd in 2021, with an offense that scored fewer points than Carolina's did in 2022, to 14th in 2022 under Evero with many the same players. I'm not at all arguing that Evero is bad but it doesn't jive at all with that angle.

Also, his argument wasn't that Carolina's defense would improve, which I do believe will happen, but rather that Denver's 2022 talent was markedly less than Carolina's 2023 talent and that Evero somehow got more from the same 'replaceable players' than the staff before him. That's just incorrect based on just a cursory review of the team beyond taking some talking head at their word.

[Dragoon11]

2 minutes ago, KSpan said:

If coaching matters is your angle, Denver's defense dropped from 3rd in 2021, with an offense that scored fewer points than Carolina's did in 2022, to 14th in 2022 under Evero with many the same players. I'm not at all arguing that Evero is bad but it doesn't jive at all with that angle.

Also, his argument wasn't that Carolina's defense would improve, which I do believe will happen, but rather that Denver's 2022 talent was markedly less than Carolina's 2023 talent and that Evero somehow got more from the same 'replaceable players' than the staff before him. That's just incorrect based on just a cursory review of the team beyond taking some talking head at their word.

Look... you can talk hypotheticals based on those kinds of " well if in 2022". None of that means anything.

We have ZERO idea what this defense will look like or achieve. We all know that a crappy offense that turns the ball over a lot or that cannot sustain drives will make a defense look worse than it truly is.

I HATE trying to figure out how a coach will do based on what he did with last team. Ultimately, it's about whether or not our guys gel with what they are trying to achieve

You guys will give yourself migraines making comparisons like you are. None of that matters now its all about how OUR roster responds... all there is to it. It's wait and see!!!

[KSpan]

11 minutes ago, Dragoon11 said:

Look... you can talk hypotheticals based on those kinds of " well if in 2022". None of that means anything.

We have ZERO idea what this defense will look like or achieve. We all know that a crappy offense that turns the ball over a lot or that cannot sustain drives will make a defense look worse than it truly is.

I HATE trying to figure out how a coach will do based on what he did with last team. Ultimately, it's about whether or not our guys gel with what they are trying to achieve

You guys will give yourself migraines making comparisons like you are. None of that matters now its all about how OUR roster responds... all there is to it. It's wait and see!!!

I completely agree with your last paragraph, but have a tendency of counterpointing crazy takes such as Jeremy Chinn being better than Justin Simmons and Denver being talent-starved relative to Carolina.

I'll add that it may take a year or two to really see the effects, as much of Carolina's defensive roster wasn't built with a 3-4 in mind. That's where I think Evero will earn his money this year, being able (or not) to coax it out of guys like McCall that are holdovers. 

[Dragoon11]

5 minutes ago, KSpan said:

I completely agree with your last paragraph, but have a tendency of counterpointing crazy takes such as Jeremy Chinn being better than Justin Simmons and Denver being talent-starved relative to Carolina.

I'll add that it may take a year or two to really see the effects, as much of Carolina's defensive roster wasn't built with a 3-4 in mind. That's where I think Evero will earn his money this year, being able (or not) to coax it out of guys like McCall that are holdovers. 

Exactly! New coaching staff, new first round QB... all new everything. What we have to hope for is SEEING these guys buying in and showing by the end of the season the Panthers are going to be a force to be reckoned with next year. I remember interviews after games with the players during the Rhule area... these guys were NOT buying what he was selling. We will see buy week 6 or 7 IMO if this team likes this system and the locker room is gelling. That's where it really is! And if BY turns out to be what we hope, even if there are some growing pains, which most likely will be, this team will be a threat to the whole league. 

May take a year or two. That's fine as long as we see that "it factor" the whole team needs. 

I remember when we had our first playoff game with Cam. Was against the 49er's AT home. We were not ready that year, niners whipped us, but you could see where the team was heading.

[Move the Panthers to Raleigh]

That’s what’s up 

[KatsAzz]

23 hours ago, Martin said:

Sounds like McCall is the favorite to start at NT. Love the front three in this scenario: Brown, McCall, Tuttle. 
 

Here is an excerpt from the Observer/Kaye:
 

“…McCall is a perfect fit in the middle of an odd front. And while he was seemingly set to compete with John Pensini and Bravvion Royfor a starting job this summer, those two players were cut less than a week into camp. Now, McCall — who has been practicing with the first-team group throughout training camp — is in the driver’s seat for the top nose tackle job.

“I’m just blessed to have that position and have the coaches trust me enough to make me a starting nose (tackle) — it’s just a blessing,” McCall said. “I’m grateful.”…”

 

 

Great news. Congratulations to McCall. I like his humble, thankful attitude.

[Eric4280]

7 hours ago, KSpan said:

Your point was just wrong though. Even if Denver did have mostly replaceable talent they did it for years before Evero, and last year ooked an awful lot like Carolina's roster but better. Better across the DL with consistent multi-year performance, no Burns at edge but better run defenders at LB, and better in the secondary both talent wise and because they can all stay healthy.

This notion of 'nothing to work with is just wrong and yeah, I would take a number of those guys from last year over Carolina guys based on talent - Williams/Jones and their consistent 8-10 sacks a year between them even before Evero over 2 of 3 projected Carolina DL starters (and maybe even Brown), Browning or even Gregory over YGM, Surtain/Simmons over anyone in the secondary, Jackson over either Woods or Bell, and Donte wasn't that good and definitely inconsistent before the Achilles let alone after so maybe even another corner too.

Many of those guys did produce before Evero, evidenced by the top 10 finishes in 2 of the 3 years before him. They're just better players in a number of spots, even if only a little at times, and it is what it is.

It’s wrong because it’s an opinion that disagrees with yours? So Dj Jones is a guy that the Broncos are worried about losing? You’re honestly going to tell me you prefer him to let’s say Derrick Brown? You cherry picked Browning and Gregory over YGM yet you didn’t bring up Burns, which is a pretty big deal. Left off Houston. And I’m gonna flat out disagree with you on the Surtain over anyone in our secondary notion. I’ve watched every single Panthers game along with every single Broncos game as my oldest brother is a broncos fan. Surtain isn’t what Horn is. Period. He’s been healthier, that’s all. I choose to believe that Denver’s guys are a product of the scheme implemented by said Evero and Fangio, as opposed to being talent advantaged. Now that Evero is here, he’ll have the scheme install along with a defense that has like 5 first rounders in the last 10 years on it.

[thefuzz]

I'd love to see us bring in another NT, glad for him, but that's a TOUGH position to play full time.

 

Need a good backup/semi starter to spell him and deal with injury.

[96Bravo]

McCall at NT makes sense to me. I prefer Brown and Tuttle as DE anyway. Gives our D-line a nasty balance, I think. 

[KSpan]

3 hours ago, Eric4280 said:

It’s wrong because it’s an opinion that disagrees with yours? So Dj Jones is a guy that the Broncos are worried about losing? You’re honestly going to tell me you prefer him to let’s say Derrick Brown? You cherry picked Browning and Gregory over YGM yet you didn’t bring up Burns, which is a pretty big deal. Left off Houston. And I’m gonna flat out disagree with you on the Surtain over anyone in our secondary notion. I’ve watched every single Panthers game along with every single Broncos game as my oldest brother is a broncos fan. Surtain isn’t what Horn is. Period. He’s been healthier, that’s all. I choose to believe that Denver’s guys are a product of the scheme implemented by said Evero and Fangio, as opposed to being talent advantaged. Now that Evero is here, he’ll have the scheme install along with a defense that has like 5 first rounders in the last 10 years on it.

And now you're saying that Denver's defense was schemed by Evero AND Fangio rather than the players... nice movement of the goalposts there. That would be a solid coincidence across 5 seasons and, if true, would put Evero a tier or two below Fangio and whomever he had at DC.

Regarding personnel, your exact words were "There is no way you’re taking Denver’s personnel over ours. It’s not inaccurate", which is why I focused on the Denver players that were upgrades and why I would indeed take Denver's personnel over Carolina's. I specifically said that I'd take their guys potentially even over Brown and of course Burns is a better edge than anyone they had not named Von Miller. Also, while McCall is promising, in a vacuum of course I'd take Denver's proven DL performance over holdovers and castoffs like McCall and Tuttle. 

Also, looks like Surtain was voted the best corner in the NFL by NFL personnel, just like Simmons was voted the best safety by NFL personnel before. You're welcome to your opinion but it's not echoed by actual NFL minds, making the Horn/Surtian discussion a push at best.

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/patrick-surtain-broncos-voted-top-corner-espn-poll#:~:text=Over 80 NFL executives%2C coaches,1 cornerback.

My brother also lives in Denver, we watch the Broncos/Panthers games and compare... You're not unique in that regard and are certainly welcome to your opinion, but it doesn't appear to mesh with the NFL reality.

Edited August 8, 2023 by KSpan

[Eric4280]

1 hour ago, KSpan said:

And now you're saying that Denver's defense was schemed by Evero AND Fangio rather than the players... nice movement of the goalposts there. That would be a solid coincidence across 5 seasons and, if true, would put Evero a tier or two below Fangio and whomever he had at DC.

Regarding personnel, your exact words were "There is no way you’re taking Denver’s personnel over ours. It’s not inaccurate", which is why I focused on the Denver players that were upgrades and why I would indeed take Denver's personnel over Carolina's. I specifically said that I'd take their guys potentially even over Brown and of course Burns is a better edge than anyone they had not named Von Miller. Also, while McCall is promising, in a vacuum of course I'd take Denver's proven DL performance over holdovers and castoffs like McCall and Tuttle. 

Also, looks like Surtain was voted the best corner in the NFL by NFL personnel, just like Simmons was voted the best safety by NFL personnel before. You're welcome to your opinion but it's not echoed by actual NFL minds, making the Horn/Surtian discussion a push at best.

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/patrick-surtain-broncos-voted-top-corner-espn-poll#:~:text=Over 80 NFL executives%2C coaches,1 cornerback.

My brother also lives in Denver, we watch the Broncos/Panthers games and compare... You're not unique in that regard and are certainly welcome to your opinion, but it doesn't appear to mesh with the NFL reality.

So yours is the one that meshes with NFL reality? My whole point I’ve BEEN making is that Evero was the lynchpin to the the Broncos successful ways. Along with Simmons and Pat (as overrated as he is). Please stop trying to convince me and anyone else that the holy grail of Dj Jones, Randy Gregory, Baron Browning and Alex Singleton are premium NFL talents… 

I’d MUCH rather have the likes of Luvu, Burns, Brown, Horn, Chinn, Bell, Shaq, and Justin Houston JUST ON TALENT ALONE compared to Simmons, Surtain, Kareem Jackson (the only TALENT on DEN that I’m considering very above average guys). Get defensive and whiny all ya want and keep using the word “reality” all you want, there are two things that make and break in the nfl, talent and scheme. Evero maximized the talent he had in DEN and was great for it, hence why coming here with MORE defensive TALENT and worse offensive division, should be a cake walk for him. No ones moving goal posts either, I’ve been saying the same thing over and over again.

[csx]

10 hours ago, thefuzz said:

I'd love to see us bring in another NT, glad for him, but that's a TOUGH position to play full time.

 

Need a good backup/semi starter to spell him and deal with injury.

Likely Tuttle m since he was already considered an option (or Brown) there. We have a number of  other experienced 3-4 DE to take their place

[Dave Gettleman's Shorts]

12 hours ago, thefuzz said:

I'd love to see us bring in another NT, glad for him, but that's a TOUGH position to play full time.

 

Need a good backup/semi starter to spell him and deal with injury.

Mccall would most likely be a 1st and 2nd down NT. Majority of the defense would be DB and Shy as our two down lineman while we bring in Chinn in our nickel package.