The case against retreads

[Mr. Scot]

One of the points of discussion in the "to Cowher or not to Cowher" debate is that some see his possession of a Super Bowl ring as a reason to hire him. Others, me included, point out that this isn't necessarily a plus since no coach that's won a Super Bowl with one team has gone on to win it with another. Some have made it back, but no one's ever won it all again.

So the question arises...Why is that?

Here's some discussion as to the reasons:

It's very difficult: Winning a Super Bowl requires that a load of things come together. You need the right combination of coaches, players, health and just plain luck. That combination comes together for one team a year while 31 others fall short. Yes, there are some teams that win multiple games in a short span, but they're rare in the salary cap era. Heck, it's difficult to repeat with the same team, much less a new one where you're starting from scratch and, quite possibly, having to overcome the mistakes of the previous coach.

The hunger factor: Because it's so difficult, it takes an incredible load of hard work to achieve the task. Coaches who haven't accomplished it yet have the hunger to put in that work. Coaches who've already hit the mark? Maybe, but as often as not they'll hear a little voice that says "You already won. Your place in history is set. Why are you beating your head against the wall all over again?" Perhaps they overcome those thoughts. Perhaps they don't. So far, there's more examples of the latter than the former (none).

The ego has landed: For some coaches, it's not a lack of confidence that short circuits them. It's too much confidence. Because they've won the big one, they come to believe that every decision they make is right and true and unquestionable. Suddenly a coaching job becomes an ego trip, and players and assistant coaches having to work around that ego can become disenchanted and unhappy, even to the point that it affects job performance. Given how tough it is to win it all, a little something like that can derail a football team the same way one little decimal point in the wrong place can screw up a complex computer program.

It's all about control: This to me is one of the biggies. A lot of coaches who have won Super Bowls get it in their heads that they can do it all; be the coach, the GM, the king of all they survey. Parcells, Holmgren, Johnson, all of them great coaches, but none of them succeeded in a dual role. In fact, no one who's held both titles has brought a trophy home. Why? Because in the modern NFL that job is just too big for one man to do effectively. Their egos tell them they can be Superman, but day to day reality is a really tough Kryptonite.

Bottom line? It isn't a superstition. It's never happened before for some quite tangible reasons. Could Cowher - or someone else - finally be the guy that breaks through and does it? Sure, but given the percentages, I'm not real high on making that gamble. There are already enough things that make it difficult to win a Super Bowl. Why add more?

To go this route, you have to be willing to believe that the guy you're betting on is so superior as a football leader that he can do what no one else, including some hall of fame coaches, has ever done.

Is Cowher - or Shanahan, or Holmgren, or Gruden - really that much of a football genius?

Make up your own minds on that. For me, it's a little too much to buy.

[Kevin Greene]

Not this again.....

[pstall]

a reTHREAD about a reTREAD? Brilliant

[Mr. Scot]

a reTHREAD about a reTREAD? Brilliant

I think you've just coined a new term

To be fair, I'm not against all retreads, but the records show the more successful retreads have been the ones who've come close but haven't won it all (i.e. Coughlin, Dungy, Gruden, Vermeil). You've even got some success from guys who were mediocre in their first job (Levy, Belichick).

For that reason, I could more easily get behind going with a guy like Jeff Fisher, Lovie Smith, or Jack Del Rio if they were let go from their jobs more than I could Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden or Holmgren.

In the end though, my preference is still to go with a rising DC like Zimmer, or maybe Rivera. I'd add that given the team's history, this seems the more likely route for Jerry Richardson to take.

[Mr. Scot]

Side Note: I remember reading a long time ago that one of Bill Polian's ideas for the Panthers first head coach was Rich Kotite, based on the belief that he'd be more successful in a new place than he'd been in Philly. Thankfully, the Jets got him instead of us.

[Kevin Greene]

Others, me included, point out that this isn't necessarily a plus since no coach that's won a Super Bowl with one team has gone on to win it with another. Some have made it back, but no one's ever won it all again.

So Ladies and gentlemen, if Tom Brady or Peyton Manning become available next season we do not want them on the Carolina Panthers.

You see no Super Bowl winning Quarterback has ever won another Super Bowl with a second team.

For that reason, I could more easily get behind going with a guy like Jeff Fisher, Lovie Smith, or Jack Del Rio if they were let go from their jobs more than I could Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden or Holmgren.

In 14 years in Tennessee Fisher's Titans have won a playoff game just 3 of those 14 years. Hiring a coach because you think he's "due"?

No.

[Mr. Scot]

So Ladies and gentlemen, if Tom Brady or Peyton Manning become available next season we do not want them on the Carolina Panthers.

You see no Super Bowl winning Quarterback has ever won another Super Bowl with a second team.

In 14 years in Tennessee Fisher's Titans have won a playoff game just 3 of those 14 years. Hiring a coach because you think he's "due"?

No.

Sorry, not the same :nonod:

How often do you see a Super Bowl quality quarterback let go from his team while he can still play at a high level?

It happens, but not very often. Those guys don't generally make it to another team unless they stick around too long. Favre might be the first to do it, or he might not. Regardless, his situation is pretty unique. If some other team was dumb enough to let a quality QB who could still play go, I'd absolutely favor looking at him.

As to the coaches, Fisher's not my first choice, but he's an example of the kind of retread that has a good track record. Technically, Fox could be too if the Panthers let him go.

Still, I'd prefer not to go with Fisher either. Mike Zimmer is my favorite choice right now.

(and all that assumes John Fox is fired, which is not a lock)

[Kevin Greene]

Sorry, not the same :nonod:

How often do you see a Super Bowl quality quarterback let go from his team while he can still play at a high level?

Perhaps, but whether 35 or 50 a HC's skills should not erode as a QB's do, making your past Super Bowl winning Head Coach phobia less of an issue.

As to the coaches, Fisher's not my first choice, but he's an example of the kind of retread that has a good track record. Technically, Fox could be too if the Panthers let him go.

I've already pointed out Fisher's post season record in his 14 years at Ten.

He does not have the kind of success I'd want the Panthers to have the next 14 years.

If Bill Cowher, Mike Shanahan, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells or Mike Holmgren suddenly announce they have a hard on to coach for the Panthers and the team is in the middle of interviewing prospective HCs, I hope they'd get a look.

[Mr. Scot]

Perhaps, but whether 35 or 50 a HC's skills should not erode as a QB's do, making your past Super Bowl winning Head Coach phobia less of an issue.

That's why it's not the same. Age doesn't necessarily affect coaching, but does affect QBs.

Apples and oranges.

If Bill Cowher, Mike Shanahan, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells or Mike Holmgren suddenly announce they have a hard on to coach for the Panthers and the team is in the middle of interviewing prospective HCs, I hope they'd get a look.

Johnson and Holmgren have already had their second chances, and Parcells has had a few.

Under Johnson, the Dolphins were generally mediocre and by the end of his tenure looked pretty bad. The Cowboys run of no playoff wins started under Parcells and continues today. Holmgren got back to the Super Bowl but didn't win, and even that only came after the team asked him to give up his GM duties (and also after the Panthers got down to Jamal Robertson at starting runningback). Heck, Joe Gibbs even came back with the same team and couldn't repeat his prior success.

It's just something that, historically speaking, doesn't work, same as going with a run-first QB who can't pass. There are lots of examples, and just as many examples of teams going opposite routes and succeeding. That just doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in me.

If we go this way, I'll hope for the best, but I'd really rather we not try something that's failed whenever someone else has tried it and hope that we'll be the exception.

[CarolinaPanthers8789]

Simple, Brett Kiesel and Casey Hampton already said they would go where Cowher goes when he comes back to the NFL.

[top dawg]

Seriously. Good coaches coach because they are hungry and want to win, not because they have or haven't won the big one. Most of them would probably still have their jobs with the teams that dumped them if that were possible. I am sure that most would tell you that each season is a journey unto itself, and what they did last year (or years ago) is pretty much immaterial when it comes to the current season. Furthermore, many coaches want their guys to win more than they want themselves to win, so I am not totally buying this "I am God!" ego thing with all of them, or even the majority.

Experience is a good thing for most of us, and with it comes confidence. Sure, it can breed cockiness and overconfidence, but coaching in the NFL is a decidedly humbling experience on any given Sunday. I am sure that many coaches would tell you this very thing (Cowher among them).

[Kevin Greene]

That's why it's not the same. Age doesn't necessarily affect coaching, but does affect QBs.

Apples and oranges.

It is the same, albeit with a much smaller window. Again drawing a conclusion on such a miniscule piece of data and predicting the future with certainty is flawed.

A coach still in his prime, who has also tasted the fruits of victory, could be a good move, even though in the 43 Lombradis awarded so far, no coach has won one with 2 different teams.

Incidentally Jimmy Johnson went to the Playoffs 3 of the 4 years he coached in Miami.

Then there's Holmgren's 6 playoff appearnaces with his second team after winning it all in Green Bay.

Parcells took all 3 teams he coached after the Giants to the playoffs.

[Brooklyn Bully]

One of the points of discussion in the "to Cowher or not to Cowher" debate is that some see his possession of a Super Bowl ring as a reason to hire him. Others, me included, point out that this isn't necessarily a plus since no coach that's won a Super Bowl with one team has gone on to win it with another. Some have made it back, but no one's ever won it all again.

Again, I'll say this...

There have been 43 Super Bowls. Of those 43 winning coaches, 12 have won multiple rings. That leaves 31 winning coaches. Of those 31, how many went on to coach another team after they won the trophy? I bet that's a pretty low number. I'm not about to research it though.

You act as if every Super Bowl winning coach has gone on to coach another team, which makes your superstitious stat sound great, but it may not even be the case for 2/3 of the winning coaches.

EDIT: I just realized my math is wrong. Of the 12 multiple SB winning coaches, they've won 29 rings. That leaves us with 14 rings won by one-timers, which makes the grand total 26 coaches who've won a SB, not 31.

I mean, just off the top of my head...

Tomlin - still coaching same team

Coughlin - still coaching same team

Dungy - retired

Cowher - retired

Belichick - still coaching same team

Gruden - retired

Billick - retired

That's as far back as my brain can think.

[Sam Mills Fan]

The thing about Super Bowl winning coaches having never won one with another team is very misleading. First, Weeb Ewbank won an NFL Championship and a Super Bowl with two different teams. No, not two Super Bowls technically, but they were both championships. Also, coaches getting another chance with another team is pretty rare, especially lately. The only coach this decade that won a Super Bowl and went to coach with another team is Dick Vermeil.