The kind of thing I muse about at this point in the offseason.

[1of10Charnatives]

Over 20 years ago, a friend gave me this book about criminal behavior in the NFL;

Pros and Cons: The Criminals Who Play in the NFL: Benedict, Jeff, Yaeger, Don: 9780446524032: Amazon.com: Books

It was an eye opener. It was well researched and fairly presented. One of the underlying points of the book was about how organizations enabled awful behavior by excusing it. The authors talked about whenever you saw a head coach and a gm at a press conference about some awful thing a player or even coach had done, the phrase was always used that "everybody deserves a second chance, we all make mistakes." But what the research showed was that by the time this was being said publicly about an NFL player, it was almost never their second chance.

It was their ninth, or tenth, or whatever.

The thinking at the time seemed to be that we have so much invested in these players that we have to try to cover for them to protect that investment and keep them playing. I think that was the thinking in the NFL and pro sports in general for a long long time.

But somewhere along the way, NFL teams thinking on this started to evolve imo. Maybe it was forced to because too many players just kept getting into trouble and becoming huge distractions and disruptions, who knows. But there definitely seemed to be a fundamental attitude shift amongst braintrusts that scouting character before drafting or signing a player was as important scouting their on field abilities. Remember when it started to become commonplace when watching draft coverage to hear about such and such a player sliding down because of character concerns?

This started to hit NFL players and prospects that got out of line where it hurt: pocketbooks and prestige. Guys who on talent alone might have been first round picks or second round picks began to slide down by whole rounds of the draft over concerns about their ability to stay out of trouble. Veteran players started facing serious consequences from the league for bad behavior, including hefty fines and suspensions.

Unscientifically, when you look around the league, I think most people who are old enough to remember the NFL 20 years ago would agree that there just seems to be less of this thing of players constantly getting into legal trouble. Drunk driving, SO or child abuse, drug involvement, arrests for insane levels of speeding or reckless driving, all of that nonsense seems to be on long term decline. When I look around the league today, I mostly see professionals increasingly conducting themselves in a professional manner. I don't see nearly as much hooligan behavior.

Anyone who remembers the earliest days of the Panthers remembers Kerry Collins stupid smirk leaving the courthouse after his DUI, but we all also know that eventually he got his act together and matured into a veteran leader. I know that before they ever step in front of a mic at a press conference, most NFL players enter the league a lot more media savy than days gone by. While he obviously appears to be an exceptional young man in many respects, it's refreshing to me that the needle seems to be pointing a lot closer to guys like Bryce Young as typical than guys like that young Kerry Collins.

There's not a lot of X's and O's to discuss this time of year, so I figured I'd share my thoughts and this and see what others think about this sort of thing.

[Panthera onca]

There is a lot more money on the line for prospects and players these days as well. I also think organizations grew weary of playing babysitter for guys as it became a huge drain on energy and resources. This is an example from the NBA, but I will never understand guys like Miles Bridges and Ja Morant behaving in the manner they did with a huge second contract on the line. It is idiotic.

[1of10Charnatives]

8 minutes ago, Panthera onca said:

There is a lot more money on the line for prospects and players these days as well. I also think organizations grew weary of playing babysitter for guys as it became a huge drain on energy and resources. This is an example from the NBA, but I will never understand guys like Miles Bridges and Ja Morant behaving in the manner they did with a huge second contract on the line. It is idiotic.

I have a longtime friend who is a paramedic and one of his favorite sayings is "There is no IQ test to be a criminal." I think changes the incentives and disincentives have had a strong positive overall impact on player behavior, but no matter what you do, you're always going to have a minimal baseline level of knucklehead nonsense from guys who just can't figure it out or get out of their own way.

No matter what the league did about player safety, Vontaze Burfict continued to be athletically gifted human garbage long after most guys had accepted the new paradigm. Thankfully that situation resolved itself and he's no longer in the league. The funny thing is, to me all signs point to the new way of doing things as a win for just about everybody but the Burficts and Morants of the world. 

I'm not sure how I might have turned out had I been handed millions of dollars in pay and a high degree of public recognition and adulation at an age where I could barely drink legally, but if I'd been surrounded by a lot of grown men covering for me and making excuses to the world every time I did something boneheaded, I suspect it's entirely possible things might have gone downhill fast. Switching from that to an environment of more personal accountability I suspect has lead to better outcomes for players, teams, and fans who got tired of the nonsense.

[thefuzz]

If you played at a viciously competitive high school, or at any college level...you see the enabling start at very young ages...especially to those with talent.

Once you are playing D1...it goes to another level all together, and certainly with starters.  I lived with a player (non starter) of a big D1 school in college (off campus), and hung out with a lot of players (starters)....these guys could get away with damn near anything short of murder.  This was in the early 00's...I think a lot of that has been cleaned up now, or it seems to be from the outside looking in.

If you are old enough to remember the NFL of the 80's, to look back at that era, and compare it to today....it's a different game/feel completely.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

38 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

If you played at a viciously competitive high school, or at any college level...you see the enabling start at very young ages...especially to those with talent.

A lot of truth to this and honestly it's only gotten exponentially worse with the rise of AAU ball and what basically amounts to diploma mill high schools that focus on developing these kids primarily as athletes first to get them D1 scholarships and hopefully provide a pathway to professional sports. But the really is that most 4 and 5 star recruits still won't ultimately play professional sports.

[Mr. Scot]

I've heard of that book. Haven't read it but it's supposed to be a good one.

I'd add that one of the things which probably helped change the culture was the rise of the internet and social media. It's way harder to cover things up these days than it used to be.

[kungfoodude]

On 6/7/2023 at 8:56 AM, LinvilleGorge said:

A lot of truth to this and honestly it's only gotten exponentially worse with the rise of AAU ball and what basically amounts to diploma mill high schools that focus on developing these kids primarily as athletes first to get them D1 scholarships and hopefully provide a pathway to professional sports. But the really is that most 4 and 5 star recruits still won't ultimately play professional sports.

That's something that was true in the 90's and early 2000's. AAU isn't rife with that anymore. It exists but a smaller percentage. 

TBH, AAU ball is much better prep for college than high school basketball. HS basketball is just about useless for most kids. 

A lot of that comes from former(and current) college and pro athletes having big AAU programs. They know what it takes to make successful athletes. Far more so than a lot of the shady characters that were around the AAU(and HS) scene back in the day.

Edited June 8, 2023 by kungfoodude

[LinvilleGorge]

24 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That's something that was true in the 90's and early 2000's. AAU isn't rife with that anymore. It exists but a smaller percentage. 

TBH, AAU ball is much better prep for college than high school basketball. HS basketball is just about useless for most kids. 

A lot of that comes from former(and current) college and pro athletes having big AAU programs. They know what it takes to make successful athletes. Far more so than a lot of the shady characters that were around the AAU(and HS) scene back in the day.

I don't think you were understanding what I was saying. I'm saying the rise of AAU ball increases the amount of pandering and special treatment of these kids with elite talent. The individual teams and tournaments are falling over themselves trying to secure the best talent.

[joemac]

On 6/7/2023 at 7:23 AM, 1of10Charnatives said:

Over 20 years ago, a friend gave me this book about criminal behavior in the NFL;

Pros and Cons: The Criminals Who Play in the NFL: Benedict, Jeff, Yaeger, Don: 9780446524032: Amazon.com: Books

It was an eye opener. It was well researched and fairly presented. One of the underlying points of the book was about how organizations enabled awful behavior by excusing it. The authors talked about whenever you saw a head coach and a gm at a press conference about some awful thing a player or even coach had done, the phrase was always used that "everybody deserves a second chance, we all make mistakes." But what the research showed was that by the time this was being said publicly about an NFL player, it was almost never their second chance.

It was their ninth, or tenth, or whatever.

The thinking at the time seemed to be that we have so much invested in these players that we have to try to cover for them to protect that investment and keep them playing. I think that was the thinking in the NFL and pro sports in general for a long long time.

But somewhere along the way, NFL teams thinking on this started to evolve imo. Maybe it was forced to because too many players just kept getting into trouble and becoming huge distractions and disruptions, who knows. But there definitely seemed to be a fundamental attitude shift amongst braintrusts that scouting character before drafting or signing a player was as important scouting their on field abilities. Remember when it started to become commonplace when watching draft coverage to hear about such and such a player sliding down because of character concerns?

This started to hit NFL players and prospects that got out of line where it hurt: pocketbooks and prestige. Guys who on talent alone might have been first round picks or second round picks began to slide down by whole rounds of the draft over concerns about their ability to stay out of trouble. Veteran players started facing serious consequences from the league for bad behavior, including hefty fines and suspensions.

Unscientifically, when you look around the league, I think most people who are old enough to remember the NFL 20 years ago would agree that there just seems to be less of this thing of players constantly getting into legal trouble. Drunk driving, SO or child abuse, drug involvement, arrests for insane levels of speeding or reckless driving, all of that nonsense seems to be on long term decline. When I look around the league today, I mostly see professionals increasingly conducting themselves in a professional manner. I don't see nearly as much hooligan behavior.

Anyone who remembers the earliest days of the Panthers remembers Kerry Collins stupid smirk leaving the courthouse after his DUI, but we all also know that eventually he got his act together and matured into a veteran leader. I know that before they ever step in front of a mic at a press conference, most NFL players enter the league a lot more media savy than days gone by. While he obviously appears to be an exceptional young man in many respects, it's refreshing to me that the needle seems to be pointing a lot closer to guys like Bryce Young as typical than guys like that young Kerry Collins.

There's not a lot of X's and O's to discuss this time of year, so I figured I'd share my thoughts and this and see what others think about this sort of thing.

My step-dad used to party with Kerry Collins at Loafers on Albemarle Rd lol. 

[kungfoodude]

54 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I don't think you were understanding what I was saying. I'm saying the rise of AAU ball increases the amount of pandering and special treatment of these kids with elite talent. The individual teams and tournaments are falling over themselves trying to secure the best talent.

I would disagree in general. It isn't any worse than it was before. Also you definitely see a marked increase in focusing on the academic side because so many of those careers were hampered due to that kind of thing back in the day. 

I am telling you this from actual personal experience, BTW. I have been involved with and around AAU basketball for almost 25 years.

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I would disagree in general. It isn't any worse than it was before. Also you definitely see a marked increase in focusing on the academic side because so many of those careers were hampered due to that kind of thing back in the day. 

I am telling you this from actual personal experience, BTW. I have been involved with and around AAU basketball for almost 25 years.

I'll take your word for it but from the outside looking in it definitely doesn't see better maybe even more specifically on the youth side. When I was a kid it was ballers only. There weren't a whole lot of travel teams per area and the kids on those teams could PLAY. These days there's a spot available for anyone whose parents will write that check.

[kungfoodude]

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'll take your word for it but from the outside looking in it definitely doesn't see better maybe even more specifically on the youth side. When I was a kid it was ballers only. There weren't a whole lot of travel teams per area and the kids on those teams could PLAY. These days there's a spot available for anyone whose parents will write that check.

There is a difference between serious AAU and just teams that are made up of any Tom, Dick or Harry that will pay. At the younger levels, it's pay to play but in serious programs that starts to split off once they get towards being teenaged. By 14U to 16U(depends on the program) there are no more payments from parents for each event, it's all shoe sponsorship money that covers most of the expenses. 

Obviously the serious programs are dwarfed by the run of the mill programs but almost all of the best talent will end up on a serious, sponsored team. That's really the only way to build yourself as a serious scholarship level athlete. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by kungfoodude

[toldozer]

You're telling me covering up a ray Lewis murder was bad? 

[Mr. Scot]

It's geito where you can't even throw a woman on a bed full of guns anymore 🫥

Though I would add, at the risk of starting something, there is the Deshaun Watson story to consider.