Re-Examining the Delhomme Extension

[Urrymonster]

Hurney needs to be gone long before Fox...but if both have to go...then farewell.

Out of those 6 picks, 4 of them are play it safe positions in the first round....LB and RB. Now lets look at that again, we have used 4 1st rounder lately on RB's and LB's....none on DL or QB...other than last years choice of Brown...who is an undersized DE, that we reached for because of bad choices made by Hurney in the First place.

The biggest problem I have with Hurney is not his first rounders, but the rest of the drafts of late. We needed depth like crazy, and we had to get it off of the street, instead of grooming our young draft picks...like most successful teams do.

Not sure we 'reached' for Brown. He was likely gone at any pick around the one we took him at. The trade itself was costly, but that value was caused by an earlier trade.

Looking at some of the big franchises, Steelers, Pats etc. You will also see a trend. They generally pick the 'safe' positions...

Pats last 5 years

2009 - none

2008 - LB

2007 - S

2006 - RB

2005 - OG

Not dissimilar to our RB, LB, OT, RB picks.

Steelers last 5 years

2009 - DT

2008 - RB

2007 - LB

2006 - WR

2005 - TE

Again the usual culprits are there, although they have picked up a couple of other positions rather than OL. Considering how awful their OL actually is, that is genuine indicator to why they might be struggling.

My point is that I believe that this is how true franchises are built. Spend the big bucks on reliable positions via the first round pick, then focus the rest of the draft filling depth and looking for skill positions. the biggest difference between the three teams is that they had an established QB at the team for a number of years. Other than trading down to go for Rodgers or Flacco, we genuinely have not had a chance to get that true signal caller in the first round. We also picked up Carr, thinking he could be the future after a year holding the clipboard.

I personally wouldn't change too much that Hurney has done. I love the Brown pick. You know that he will always give his best no matter what, which is exactly what you want in a 'first round' draft pick. I do agree that we could of done with more depth on the DL, but realistically the draft options have not often been there. It is genuinely impossible to fill every need in the draft, they are simply too unpredictable.

Another thing to consider is that Hurney drafed Irvin and then got criticised for reaching for a DT, despite it being a need.

[Sam Mills Fan]

You can't restructure contracts that only have one year left. The whole point of restructuring, is that you move some salary of bonus' to different years that what they were originally set out for. So with just one season on the contract, there is no where else the money could go.

It was extend or nothing.

Extending just one year also acheives little as the money still can't really be moved much. So it was either a multi year deal or cut him loose.

Even if that's true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that's still on the backs of Marty Hurney and John Fox for getting themselves into this situation. It was their choice to have no backup plan behind Jake Delhomme that they were comfortable with that they couldn't cut him. It was their choice to tag Peppers leaving us with zero cap room. It was their choice to extend Jake's contract rather than figuring out another option (and yes, there had to have been another way to get that done or else every single media member and NFL source wouldn't have been laughing at the extension).

[Sam Mills Fan]

lol

Do you have a single example of that?

[MaineManPanther]

Even if that's true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that's still on the backs of Marty Hurney and John Fox for getting themselves into this situation. It was their choice to have no backup plan behind Jake Delhomme that they were comfortable with that they couldn't cut him. It was their choice to tag Peppers leaving us with zero cap room. It was their choice to extend Jake's contract rather than figuring out another option (and yes, there had to have been another way to get that done or else every single media member and NFL source wouldn't have been laughing at the extension).

Why would they cut him before the start of the 2008 season? Im no expert, but I'd have to think that cut him or not you'd be dealing with a cap hit.

As far as Peppers goes, what would you have them do?

Drop him with no value, leaving the team with a lackluster d-line? If so what player/s are you going to try to get with that 16 million that would have the same impact or bigger as Peppers would?

[Urrymonster]

Even if that's true, and I have no reason to doubt you, that's still on the backs of Marty Hurney and John Fox for getting themselves into this situation. It was their choice to have no backup plan behind Jake Delhomme that they were comfortable with that they couldn't cut him. It was their choice to tag Peppers leaving us with zero cap room. It was their choice to extend Jake's contract rather than figuring out another option (and yes, there had to have been another way to get that done or else every single media member and NFL source wouldn't have been laughing at the extension).

I think everyone couldn't believe the contract, it was...unexpected. I agree with extending him, but not to the amount he has received. I think Scott mentioned that they may have tried to price him into being an elitre QB, fuelling him with confidence and self belief. Unfrotunately his first real game after that he has another meltdown. If that had been avoided we may have seena different season.

Whilst I agree that a competent back up 'should' be on the roster. I struggle to work out where he would have come from. There has not been a decent option for quite some time and literally no FA have performed even adequately. They tried with Carr, who made the most sense in several years, then traded for McCown. So they have been trying to find that alternative, but luck has not been with them. They also have had multiple youngsters come onto the roster and none of them have panned out, Moore has been the only one who could walk on the field and not throw the game away (although there is still time for that).

So, essentially, they have tried to get their future on the roster. It's not paid off. Everyone an look back and ask why we did not pick up this player, or that player, but realistically the cards have never really fallen for us. There are not many QBs you can look at and genuinely say we had a realistic chance of aquiring them. Flacco and Rodgers are the only ones that spring to mind, but I doubt either would have had the opportunities here. Rodgers is the clasic example of a kid learning from the sidelines, I doubt he would have gotten that luxury here. Also concerns that scheme would not of been ideal for him. Flacco has the luxury of scheme and a dominant defense, both of which he would not have had here. So I question if they would have blossomed ino the players they are now.

Where else and who else could we have legitimately picked up?

[carolinanimal]

I think everyone couldn't believe the contract, it was...unexpected. I agree with extending him, but not to the amount he has received. I think Scott mentioned that they may have tried to price him into being an elitre QB, fuelling him with confidence and self belief. Unfrotunately his first real game after that he has another meltdown. If that had been avoided we may have seena different season.

Whilst I agree that a competent back up 'should' be on the roster. I struggle to work out where he would have come from. There has not been a decent option for quite some time and literally no FA have performed even adequately. They tried with Carr, who made the most sense in several years, then traded for McCown. So they have been trying to find that alternative, but luck has not been with them. They also have had multiple youngsters come onto the roster and none of them have panned out, Moore has been the only one who could walk on the field and not throw the game away (although there is still time for that).

So, essentially, they have tried to get their future on the roster. It's not paid off. Everyone an look back and ask why we did not pick up this player, or that player, but realistically the cards have never really fallen for us. There are not many QBs you can look at and genuinely say we had a realistic chance of aquiring them. Flacco and Rodgers are the only ones that spring to mind, but I doubt either would have had the opportunities here. Rodgers is the clasic example of a kid learning from the sidelines, I doubt he would have gotten that luxury here. Also concerns that scheme would not of been ideal for him. Flacco has the luxury of scheme and a dominant defense, both of which he would not have had here. So I question if they would have blossomed ino the players they are now.

Where else and who else could we have legitimately picked up?

so are you saying that we could trade away first round picks in consecutive years and trade up and down in the draft to get lineman and rbs but not a qb ever above the 5th round?:confused:

[Nu Guns]

Year of contracts!!! Peppers,Delhomme and Grosse thats a lot of wasted cash - thats all Hurney

[MaineManPanther]

Year of contracts!!! Peppers,Delhomme and Grosse thats a lot of wasted cash - thats all Hurney

Gross? How so?

[Urrymonster]

so are you saying that we could trade away first round picks in consecutive years and trade up and down in the draft to get lineman and rbs but not a qb ever above the 5th round?:confused:

Ummm, no not at all. Just saying that when a franchise QB falls to you, you take him. If he doesn't then you pick the positions which you know will perform in the first round. You really can't go searching for one, because they are very rare and you can waste years by trying every other year. Look at the teams who have found legit franchise QBs, how many of them traded for them or signed them as FA's? In addition how many of them moved around in the draft to find them? Pretty low percentage I would wager. Considering that, we genuinely have not had an opportunity to get a legit franchise QB.

This whole thread has gotten de-railed some. It's supposed to be about Delhomme's contract!

My thoughts are that they were left wiht little choice but to extend him and that knowing this they maybe over spent in an attempt to breed self confidence and belief back into Delohmme. It has not panned out, but hopefully they had a contingency plan in the contract that allows them to cut ties with him without a big hit ONCE the future QB has been found.

[carolinanimal]

Ummm, no not at all. Just saying that when a franchise QB falls to you, you take him. If he doesn't then you pick the positions which you know will perform in the first round. You really can't go searching for one, because they are very rare and you can waste years by trying every other year. Look at the teams who have found legit franchise QBs, how many of them traded for them or signed them as FA's? In addition how many of them moved around in the draft to find them? Pretty low percentage I would wager. Considering that, we genuinely have not had an opportunity to get a legit franchise QB.

This whole thread has gotten de-railed some. It's supposed to be about Delhomme's contract!

My thoughts are that they were left wiht little choice but to extend him and that knowing this they maybe over spent in an attempt to breed self confidence and belief back into Delohmme. It has not panned out, but hopefully they had a contingency plan in the contract that allows them to cut ties with him without a big hit ONCE the future QB has been found.

i understand, but you cant run a franchise scared. you have to be able to take chances. you have got to know that as a gm and head coach some gambles will not pay off everything cant be a surething. especially with the qb position since it is THE most important position.

and we havent drafted a qb higher than the 5th round ever.

if you look at the top qbs they were all high draft picks except for tom brady and warner. all those franchises didnt think" Hey! lets play it safe! dont want to miss on a qb!" they went out and got who they thought would help there franchise.

my point on my first comment was in the draft there is no such thing as waiting to a franchise qb falls to us. you go get him! if we can trade next years first and other picks for a rt we can do better for a qb.

[thefuzz]

We have chosen to play it safe when looking for QB's because "the learning curve is too steep", and it has crippled the franchise.

Even the teams out there that have the ideas of "running the ball and playing great D" know that you have to be able to throw the ball to win consistently in this league. ie. Baltimore and Pitt.

We have ignored the position totally, and it is biting us in the ass now. That cannot be denied. It should have been addressed, and it has not, and for that Hurney has to go.

If you take a QB in the first, and sit him for even 2 years, and don't win, but he is able to learn the game, and then come in and play at a high level...you win. Yes you may have 2 bad years, but then 8-10 good years, where the QB position is not an issue every year, and you can build an offense around him.

stepping down from the soap box....whew

[jpniner]

We have chosen to play it safe when looking for QB's because "the learning curve is too steep", and it has crippled the franchise.

Its wise to be cautious here, though the overall problem with Fox/Panthers is they were Conservative to a fault.

Never was it more obvious they better plan for the future then after Jake tore up his elbow. They did nothing.

Though they had some bad luck with Carr, ideally he would've got his 2nd chance in league this year and not right away like he did.

Also, part of our QB problems is likely because the Offense is too Predictable because Fox is Conservative to a fault and Defenses know how what they are doing before they do it.

[Urrymonster]

i understand, but you cant run a franchise scared. you have to be able to take chances. you have got to know that as a gm and head coach some gambles will not pay off everything cant be a surething. especially with the qb position since it is THE most important position.

and we havent drafted a qb higher than the 5th round ever.

if you look at the top qbs they were all high draft picks except for tom brady and warner. all those franchises didnt think" Hey! lets play it safe! dont want to miss on a qb!" they went out and got who they thought would help there franchise.

my point on my first comment was in the draft there is no such thing as waiting to a franchise qb falls to us. you go get him! if we can trade next years first and other picks for a rt we can do better for a qb.

Of course, I completely agree about taking risks. Heck, Hurney has taken big gambles in the draft these past two seasons. The key is to make calculated risks. Want to trade future picks? Then select someone who will definately pan out, do not select someone who will cripple your franchise.

My point, which I never really made, was that it is very difficult 'to go looking' for a franchise QB. They either fall to you, or they do not. Trading around to get 'the guy' invariably fails, whereas standing pat or trading down and taking the QB who falls to you tends to turn out better. Following that theory, we have never been given a legit chance to draft a franchise QB. One thing the guys with the elites have had in common, is that they have all had a top 15 pick to get these QBs.

Still not sure if I have made myself clear.

This is our recent pick selections

2008 - 13 (19) - Stewart & Otah

2007 - 14 (25) - Traded & Beason

2008 - 27 - Williams

2005 - 14 - Davis

2004 - 28 - Gamble

2003 - 8 - Gross

2002 - 2 - Peppers

Boy am I glad we picked up Peppers & Gross as we clearly could of picked a QB at that point, although at this point Delhomme was in his prime. After that we had opportunities to pick in that top half in 2005, which I think was potentially too early to pick up a QB considering Delhommes career, but I remember I wanted Rodgers. Frankly I feel he was the main missed target as he would have had the same time to spend on the bench. After that our own real opportunities have been '07 & '08, '07 has been comically bad, so that leaves '08.

Personally I feel we perhaps should have picked up a QB in either of those two drafts. This is obviously in hindsight.

[Udogg]

Mr Scott makes full of logic post.

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There was no logic behind the extension any way you look at it it was a bad deal.

This board is hilarious.