The Whole "SEC" Argument is So Badly Flawed

[OldhamA]

4 minutes ago, PantherKyle said:

Do we want to look at the OL/WR Stroud worked with last year vs what Bryce had?

Yes please.

[Sgt Schultz]

I'm not exactly sure why people would get their shorts in a bunch over the concept that the competition Young, or anybody else for that matter, will see every week in the NFL is better than they saw in their college careers.  That same sentiment has been said before by NFL players, coaches, and scouts.

The SEC may have some teams that are full of future NFL players, but that is limited to maybe two or three teams. 

Don't lose sight of the fact that the NFL is the best of the best.......unless maybe The Process assembled the roster.  When you parse that outlier away, the opponents are in uniform because they are the fastest, most savvy (football intelligence), hardest hitting, and have the best technique. 

That's one reason why QBs usually are hit and miss, especially right out of the chute.  The ones that seem to start the fastest are guys like Purdy, who had little film on them and very little scouting information for opponents to prepare for.  But that changes soon enough, too.

[tukafan21]

7 minutes ago, stan786 said:

I can respect people saying they prefer Stroud because of actual QB things. I personally have a large enough gap between Young and Stroud sans size that the size doesn't factor into the equation, but we are all just guys on a message board.

The problem on this board is I dont think fans argue enough about actual qualities that they feel push these guys over and just default on the tired size argument and talk about it like its a foregone conclusion. Some Stroud guys have 100% have given some great arguments on why they prefer Stroud but things on message boards just tend to simmer to the most basic arguments. There have also been a number that will say Young is a better QB but hes going to get hurt in the pros which is something I just cant get behind personally.

End of the day anyone talking in guarantees is wrong in my eyes, and I think a lot of the Young side are tired of the common automatic "hes to small we would be idiotic to draft him" takes and get a little more vigilant when discussing things.

He could get hurt in the NFL, I would argue there is nothing in the data or his past that makes it a Very Likely or anything, its just an assumption that may or may not play out.

Personally, I don't talk about those actual QB things with the two of them because I think they're basically even level prospects with each better or worse than the other in different aspects of their game, but in the end, I think it evens out.

What good is an endless discussion of... "Well Young is better at X, Y, and Z, while Stroud is better a A, B, and C and after weighing all those factors, I think they're even level prospects"

Because then the question becomes, "well how do you separate them to pick one over the other?"

And the answer to that, for me, is Young's small frame.

It's not the only factor and it's not the first factor, it's the final piece of the equation, you have to look at all the other football stuff first, which I've done, and I like them equally from that standpoint.

 

[stan786]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Personally, I don't talk about those actual QB things with the two of them because I think they're basically even level prospects with each better or worse than the other in different aspects of their game, but in the end, I think it evens out.

What good is an endless discussion of... "Well Young is better at X, Y, and Z, while Stroud is better a A, B, and C and after weighing all those factors, I think they're even level prospects"

Because then the question becomes, "well how do you separate them to pick one over the other?"

And the answer to that, for me, is Young's small frame.

It's not the only factor and it's not the first factor, it's the final piece of the equation, you have to look at all the other football stuff first, which I've done, and I like them equally from that standpoint.

 

I think that is totally fair, others think Bryce is better and that outweighs the concerns in their mind, some think Stroud is better straight up and I think thats fair. We are all just fans on a message board.

Its the definitive statements on injury risk and acting like there is no chance that Bryce is able to stay healthy long term is where most the push back comes.

[JawnyBlaze]

32 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Personally, I don't talk about those actual QB things with the two of them because I think they're basically even level prospects with each better or worse than the other in different aspects of their game, but in the end, I think it evens out.

What good is an endless discussion of... "Well Young is better at X, Y, and Z, while Stroud is better a A, B, and C and after weighing all those factors, I think they're even level prospects"

Because then the question becomes, "well how do you separate them to pick one over the other?"

And the answer to that, for me, is Young's small frame.

It's not the only factor and it's not the first factor, it's the final piece of the equation, you have to look at all the other football stuff first, which I've done, and I like them equally from that standpoint.

 

That’s basically where I’m at, I think all things considered they’re pretty comparable, but the separators: throwing ability vs off script playmaking, I value throwing ability more. The size thing is mildly concerning, but not the difference maker to me. 

[LinvilleGorge]

I honestly agree with the premise of the thread. Yeah, the SEC is the best college football conference. But are they THAT much better than everyone else? Honestly I don't think so. Yeah, Bama and UGA are both top 4 programs. Bama, UGA, OSU, and Clemson just stand head and shoulders above the pack right now year in and year out. But is the rest of the rank and file SEC teams really that much better than everyone else? Honestly, I don't see it. I just think the likes of Ole Miss and Arkansas and the like enjoy chatting "SEC! SEC! SEC!" just to ride the coattails of their actually successful conference brethren.

[tukafan21]

18 minutes ago, JawnyBlaze said:

That’s basically where I’m at, I think all things considered they’re pretty comparable, but the separators: throwing ability vs off script playmaking, I value throwing ability more. The size thing is mildly concerning, but not the difference maker to me. 

Same, Stroud is a slightly better passer while Young has a slightly better feel for the game.

But having said that, I don't think Young is a bad passers and I don't think Stroud has a bad feel for the game, that's where things for me just balance out between them overall when you take size out of the equation.

I have them in a neck and neck race even at that point.

That's where I then look at the size factor.  

Everything else can be coached up, but you can't make Young grow taller, and while you can put some weight on him, his overall frame is very slight, he doesn't have the wide base to him that other shorter QB's have had.

If they were the exact same size, I'd still say they were dead even prospects, but then the deciding factor for me would be Young's processing ability.  But since I don't think Stroud is poor at that, he's still very good just not quite to the level of Young, that's why I don't view it as "taking the worse QB just because he's bigger" like so many of the Young supporters like to say about us Stroud supporters.

Because again, it's not just about the processing ability, that's just one factor that Young is better at, but there are other areas that Stroud is better than Young.

The gap in their processing ability is significantly smaller than the gap of the potential liability in the size difference for me.

Edited April 21, 2023 by tukafan21

[Davidson Deac II]

Personally, I hope we take Stroud, but if we take Young, then I hope he has a fantastic career for us.  

I also will be glad when this is over and we can move on to arguing about who we should have picked, instead of arguing about who we should pick. 

[Toker Smurf]

5 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I really hate when people say things like, "well he didn't get hurt in the SEC where he's playing against NFL sized and caliber players every week"

It's just nonsense that doesn't hold up to even the slightest digging into the facts.  Last year the SEC had 65 players drafted, which was the most every by a single conference, but take even half a second to look at it a bit further.  Half of those picks came from 3 teams, Georgia, LSU, and Alabama.  33 of the picks were then spread out across the rest of the conference.

Then factor in that some of them were offensive players, without going through pick by pick, that means there was probably roughly somewhere between 12-20 defensive players drafted from the SEC last year outside of those 3 teams.  

And sure, factor in that some NFL caliber players obviously didn't go pro, but also some future NFL players would have still been young and not at that level yet anyways, so for the sake of argument, let's go with the high end of 20 there and then double that number to take into account players who didn't go pro.

That would mean outside those top 3 teams, there was probably 40ish NFL caliber defensive players in the conference last year, which essentially breaks down to 3-4 NFL quality defensive players per team, of which, how many of them are actually pass rushers?

The argument against Young has never been about height, it's always been about his frame and not how will it hold up on a game by game basis, but over the course of a 17 game season and hopefully a 10+ year career.  So sure, he played a few games against teams loaded with NFL sized and quality players and he got through it, but getting through a few games without getting hurt isn't the issue.

So when people use the argument of him getting thru the SEC for 2 years without getting hurt as the proof that his size shouldn't be a factor, it's just nonsense.  I'd be very curious if someone were to go through the film of every hit he took to find out how many of them were by players of NFL size, speed, strength, etc.  

I'm guessing it's not that many, however still people want to use him getting through the SEC unscathed as the reasoning as to why he'll be able to hold up in the NFL.  But in reality, in his full career at Alabama, he probably took less hits by NFL type of players than he'll take in the first half of his rookie season alone.

It’s relative. The same would go for the other conferences, diminishing them , as well. Meaning you’re back where you started. 

[Shocker]

4 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

Still completely missing the point

The SEC measuring stick is about football skill, not staying healthy for what would be the smallest QB in NFL history.

If people want to point to his success as a QB in the SEC, that's completely fair and valid, especially if you want to use it to counter anyone talking about his height.

But when people point to him making it through the SEC healthy, that's where it completely falls apart. and THAT is my point here.  To be a successful QB in the SEC, you play against all positions on defense, but to stay healthy, you have to be able to absorb hits by essentially 3 positions, DE, DT, and pass rushing LB's.

I'd be very curious to know how many hits he took in the last 2 years by NFL level players, I'd bet it's less than 25 over the course of his career.

Keep searching man

[Varking]

9 hours ago, therealmjl said:

So is like 5'11 195 the cutoff? And anything under that they're doomed?

Also, if Stroud was an "equally good prospect", he would be the pick. 

Sometimes people pick Tuas over Herberts. Getting drafted higher just means you were a higher rated prospect that specific draft by one specific team at least. 

[pantherclaw]

 

10 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

 

I'll wait while you realize there hasn't been one.

 

Just because it hasn't been done before, doesn't mean it can't. 

It's my opinion the the NFL doesn't give a fug how big or strong you are, it can and will break the strongest. 

He could have a great career, but you're willing to pass on a potential HOF'er. 

 

[tukafan21]

1 hour ago, pantherclaw said:

 

Just because it hasn't been done before, doesn't mean it can't. 

It's my opinion the the NFL doesn't give a fug how big or strong you are, it can and will break the strongest. 

He could have a great career, but you're willing to pass on a potential HOF'er. 

 

For someone who I think will have a better career, so.................. 

If someone held a gun to my head and told me I have to put my life savings on either Stroud or Young to make the HOF, same odds for both, I'd put my bet on Stroud.

[MechaZain]

Bryce Young is the product of an evolving game like Cam was. The game is more QB friendly now than it's ever been (in more ways than just penalizing hits), opening the field up to a wider range of playstyles and body types than we've traditionally seen succeed.  Many QBs today do not fit the old school archetype of a quarterback. Compare away but there is no real precedent for this dude because he is blazing the trail in front of our eyes.

You either believe that the NFL is at the point where a undersized guy can thrive as a QB if he's smart enough or you don't. I do and what Tepper said during the coaching search tells us that team is rebuilding with the evolving game in mind, top to bottom.

I'm so over putting the franchise on guys who look the part and hoping they figure out how to be a quarterback along the way. Give me the day 1 baller and I'll pray for his health.

Edited April 22, 2023 by MechaZain