The Whole "SEC" Argument is So Badly Flawed

[tukafan21]

2 minutes ago, therealmjl said:

but you literally just told me to name the best sub 6 foot quarterbacks in NFL history:

so which is it? 

 

 

this is suddenly related - did you happen to help CJ Stroud prepare for his S2 test?

You're right, I said best sub 6 foot, but I also said right after, that I probably shouldn't state it like that, it's just an easier way to say "small QB" 

But part of it also is that if I were to say name the best sub 200 lbs QB in the NFL history, there isn't even an answer there because there hasn't been one.  So the closest thing you could compare it to in that sense is height, and if you're asking for evidence as to why smaller QB's are more likely to be injured, you kinda have to go by height as there has never been a QB as small as he is before.

[tukafan21]

2 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

So essentially what you are saying is that the SEC isn’t the NFL, right?

 

As in, he may have been relatively healthy in the SEC, but it’s still not the NFL. The NFL is a different beast. 
 

 

If so, that argument can be made for anything done in the SEC. Football skill included.

 

“A player played well in the SEC, but the NFL is a different level.”

”A player stayed healthy in the SEC, but the NFL is…”

”A QB had a lot of rushing yards in the SEC, but the NFL is…”

 

 

At the end of the day, the SEC isn’t the NFL, but it’s the closest to the NFL regarding the talent level. It’s the big boy college conference. 
 

Young may get hurt. It may be because he’s small (which will be the default explanation) but it may not be because of his size at all. 
 

Take Corral’s lis franc, and Cam’s lis franc. That is a season ender, and it has nothing to do with size. It’s more of a result of the cleat being planted, while being twisted down to the ground.

poo happens. 
 

I’m not worried about it until I have to be. 

Nope, still not getting it.

I'm not saying this is a reason against the SEC argument in general, I'm only saying it in regards to the people who say things like, "it's nonsense to say he can't stay healthy when he made it through 2 SEC seasons without serious injury"

Two very different things

[stan786]

Does Richardson and Levis getting hurt in the SEC a bunch ding them more since it wasn't the NFL, or does their weight make it ok?

[OldhamA]

42 minutes ago, poundaway said:

 

Please show any analysis or examples that show smaller QB's get hurt more or have shorter careers, because the only analysis I've seen has shown the exact opposite.  Our experience with Cam and Corral shows the exact opposite.

Please, convince me that smaller QB's are injured more and have shorter careers.

What does our experience with Corral show, exactly?

[TheCasillas]

@therealmjland @tukafan21Here is a really good article to help yal's debate.

 

Two good exerpts:

 

Since 2000, nine quarterbacks have appeared in an NFL game listed at 6-1, 200 pounds or smaller: Jeff Garcia, Tim Rattay, Thaddeus Lewis, Doug Flutie, Tyler Huntley, Kellen Moore, John Wolford, Ty Detmer and Koy Detmer. They have started a total of 177 games (106 by Garcia) and appeared in five Pro Bowls (4 for Garcia, 1 for Flutie).

 

Now it gets interesting. Let's start with a few caveats:

∎ As noted, Young would be the smallest first-round quarterback in 60 years. This data may not apply to him.

∎ All NFL quarterbacks, obviously, can get hurt.

∎ This data is a relatively small sample size.

I looked at the top 40 quarterbacks in passing yards over the last 10 years and determined how many starts they missed due to injury using pro-football-reference.com. The data is noisy but the ONLY statistically significant correlation was that heavier quarterbacks were more likely to get injured than lighter quarterbacks.

Twelve quarterbacks missed 15% of their starts or more. Six were 5 pounds heavier (230 pounds) or more than the average of the players in the survey: Nick Foles, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer, Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco and Jameis Winston. Two were within 5 pounds of average: Jimmy Garoppolo and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Four were 5 pounds or more less than average: Teddy Bridgewater, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill and Lamar Jackson.

Thirteen quarterbacks missed 5% or fewer of their starts. Just three weighed at least 230 pounds ‒ Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Blake Bortles; two of them are early in their careers. Four were around average weight: Patrick Mahomes, Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Philip Rivers. And six were 219 pounds or less: Baker Mayfield, Russell Wilson, Jared Goff, Matt Ryan, Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins.

So are smaller quarterbacks more likely to get hurt? The historical data says the opposite.

[SmokinwithWilly]

The SEC is the best conference in college football. The best of the SEC are now the normal of the NFL with a few elite talents every year from various conferences. I was listening to a podcast today and one of the guys on it was a Saints cover guy and he was hoping we take Young because NFL teams are going to be trying to drill him into the ground every game. They don't care about a 15 yard roughing the passer penalty if he's out of the game. Being concerned about his frame is a legitimate concern. Doesn't mean he will or won't be a successful QB. 

[backINblack28]

Russ and Young have the literal exact same combine weight. 204.  There is a whole entire athletic article where Fitterer talks both about that and about Bryce putting on weight thru training and diet / naturally after draft, just as Russ did. Far be it from me to keep you from ignoring these facts just to beat a dead horse over and over and then say 'if i'm wrong no one can say so for 5 years' as if literally any athlete getting injured playing a sport is some Nostradamus prediction. Can't argue with that type of bias. You seem like you want to be butthurt about the pick.  I'm excited af and ready for him to prove the doubters wrong. I just wish it wasn't so many of our fans. Already went thru that with Cam.  Sorry you won't have any fun like the rest of us

[therealmjl]

1 minute ago, TheCasillas said:

@therealmjland @tukafan21Here is a really good article to help yal's debate.

 

Two good exerpts:

 

Since 2000, nine quarterbacks have appeared in an NFL game listed at 6-1, 200 pounds or smaller: Jeff Garcia, Tim Rattay, Thaddeus Lewis, Doug Flutie, Tyler Huntley, Kellen Moore, John Wolford, Ty Detmer and Koy Detmer. They have started a total of 177 games (106 by Garcia) and appeared in five Pro Bowls (4 for Garcia, 1 for Flutie).

 

Now it gets interesting. Let's start with a few caveats:

∎ As noted, Young would be the smallest first-round quarterback in 60 years. This data may not apply to him.

∎ All NFL quarterbacks, obviously, can get hurt.

∎ This data is a relatively small sample size.

I looked at the top 40 quarterbacks in passing yards over the last 10 years and determined how many starts they missed due to injury using pro-football-reference.com. The data is noisy but the ONLY statistically significant correlation was that heavier quarterbacks were more likely to get injured than lighter quarterbacks.

Twelve quarterbacks missed 15% of their starts or more. Six were 5 pounds heavier (230 pounds) or more than the average of the players in the survey: Nick Foles, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer, Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco and Jameis Winston. Two were within 5 pounds of average: Jimmy Garoppolo and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Four were 5 pounds or more less than average: Teddy Bridgewater, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill and Lamar Jackson.

Thirteen quarterbacks missed 5% or fewer of their starts. Just three weighed at least 230 pounds ‒ Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Blake Bortles; two of them are early in their careers. Four were around average weight: Patrick Mahomes, Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Philip Rivers. And six were 219 pounds or less: Baker Mayfield, Russell Wilson, Jared Goff, Matt Ryan, Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins.

So are smaller quarterbacks more likely to get hurt? The historical data says the opposite.

Bye @tukafan21

[Wundrbread33]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

Nope, still not getting it.

I'm not saying this is a reason against the SEC argument in general, I'm only saying it in regards to the people who say things like, "it's nonsense to say he can't stay healthy when he made it through 2 SEC seasons without serious injury"

Two very different things

Sounds like I fully understand. What you are saying isn’t complex. 
 

Being healthy in the SEC does not guarantee he is healthy in the NFL. 
 

Either your issue is people comparing the SEC to the NFL (in your case, regarding health) or people talking with certainty (absolutes) that he will stay healthy, when absolutes simply don’t exist. 
 

Is this what you mean?

[therealmjl]

3 minutes ago, stan786 said:

Does Richardson and Levis getting hurt in the SEC a bunch ding them more since it wasn't the NFL, or does their weight make it ok?

I know right

[therealmjl]

Just now, Wundrbread33 said:

Sounds like I fully understand. What you are saying isn’t complex. 
 

Being healthy in the SEC does not guarantee he is healthy in the NFL. 
 

Either your issue is people comparing the SEC to the NFL (in your case, regarding health) or people talking with certainty (absolutes) that he will stay healthy, when absolutes simply don’t exist. 
 

Is this what you mean?

He keeps moving the goalposts around. 

[poundaway]

19 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Show me the evidence of successful sub 200 QB's, I'll wait too (well actually I won't wait, because there isn't any evidence to wait for, because it hasn't happened, ever, in the entire history of the NFL).

We traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and our #1 WR for this pick, why do people want to do that and then bet on someone being the first ever successful player at his size for the position?

Wilson was a 3rd rounder, not the 1st overall pick after trading a haul to get the pick when there is an equally talented prospect also sitting there.  It's called risk assessment, and Young is a far greater risk thank Stroud at #1 overall, even before factoring in what we gave up to get the pick.

Your the one saying smaller QB's have durability issues. 

Do you have anything to offer on that besides bias?

[tukafan21]

12 minutes ago, backINblack28 said:

Russ and Young have the literal exact same combine weight. 204.  There is a whole entire athletic article where Fitterer talks both about that and about Bryce putting on weight thru training and diet / naturally after draft, just as Russ did. Far be it from me to keep you from ignoring these facts just to beat a dead horse over and over and then say 'if i'm wrong no one can say so for 5 years' as if literally any athlete getting injured playing a sport is some Nostradamus prediction. Can't argue with that type of bias. You seem like you want to be butthurt about the pick.  I'm excited af and ready for him to prove the doubters wrong. I just wish it wasn't so many of our fans. Already went thru that with Cam.  Sorry you won't have any fun like the rest of us

C'mon man, seriously?

Young is already an inch smaller than Russ, you really going to tell me that these two players below have the same weight/frame despite Young being an inch shorter as well?

That 204 combine weight by Young is a farce and everyone knows it

Weight was never a concern for Wilson coming into the league, it was his height, so he didn't need to put on weight for a show weight at the combine.  There is a reason Young didn't do any workouts at the combine, it's because he wasn't in peak physical shape due to the weight he artificially put on there.

His combine weight is the equivalent of a UFC fighter who cuts weight for a weigh in and then steps into the cage 15-20 lbs heavier, it's just in reverse.  Fighters couldn't cut all that weight and then step into the cage to fight right after the weigh in.

Edited April 21, 2023 by tukafan21

[poundaway]

9 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

@therealmjland @tukafan21Here is a really good article to help yal's debate.

 

Two good exerpts:

 

Since 2000, nine quarterbacks have appeared in an NFL game listed at 6-1, 200 pounds or smaller: Jeff Garcia, Tim Rattay, Thaddeus Lewis, Doug Flutie, Tyler Huntley, Kellen Moore, John Wolford, Ty Detmer and Koy Detmer. They have started a total of 177 games (106 by Garcia) and appeared in five Pro Bowls (4 for Garcia, 1 for Flutie).

 

Now it gets interesting. Let's start with a few caveats:

∎ As noted, Young would be the smallest first-round quarterback in 60 years. This data may not apply to him.

∎ All NFL quarterbacks, obviously, can get hurt.

∎ This data is a relatively small sample size.

I looked at the top 40 quarterbacks in passing yards over the last 10 years and determined how many starts they missed due to injury using pro-football-reference.com. The data is noisy but the ONLY statistically significant correlation was that heavier quarterbacks were more likely to get injured than lighter quarterbacks.

Twelve quarterbacks missed 15% of their starts or more. Six were 5 pounds heavier (230 pounds) or more than the average of the players in the survey: Nick Foles, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer, Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco and Jameis Winston. Two were within 5 pounds of average: Jimmy Garoppolo and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Four were 5 pounds or more less than average: Teddy Bridgewater, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill and Lamar Jackson.

Thirteen quarterbacks missed 5% or fewer of their starts. Just three weighed at least 230 pounds ‒ Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Blake Bortles; two of them are early in their careers. Four were around average weight: Patrick Mahomes, Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Philip Rivers. And six were 219 pounds or less: Baker Mayfield, Russell Wilson, Jared Goff, Matt Ryan, Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins.

So are smaller quarterbacks more likely to get hurt? The historical data says the opposite.

Its no use.  Analysis, data, examples will not persuade the biased.

Its like Rhule and his longer arm shlt.