The Whole "SEC" Argument is So Badly Flawed

[TheRumGone]

I don’t even get talking about this anymore when everything has been said over and over and over. You have zero control over who is drafted. It’s looking like Bryce so just enjoy the entertainment. 

[poundaway]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

jesus fuging christ, how hard is reading comprehension?

I've literally said numerous times I don't give two shits about his height, it's about his frame and ability to hold up for a long career.  I'll stop saying "sub 6 foot" QB's and start saying "sub 200 lbs" instead since people can't seem to figure out that people don't actually care about his height.

Ok sub 200.  Show the evidence.  I'll wait.

[tukafan21]

6 minutes ago, poundaway said:

There are fewer shorter QBs because of BIAS.  Especially the old schoolers.  The same bias that refuses to show ANY evidence that smaller QB's get hurt more or have shorter careers.  Wilson in interviews has said he was told over and over he could never be an NFL QB.  Carol took a chance. 

 

Again, Wilson was told that because he was short, dude is built like a dumb truck, he was built to take an NFL level beating, two completely different things here.

[backINblack28]

Here is part of one team’s pre-draft scouting report, furnished by a former NBA head coach, that listed Stephen Curry’s perceived weaknesses:

• Not a true point guard.
• Out of control at times.
• Shot-selection.
• Stuck between 1 and 2.
• Ability to defend position at next level?
• Lateral quickness.
• Versatility to defend multiple positions.
• Limited upside?
• Backup/Fringe Starter?
• College system makes him difficult to evaluate.
• Average athleticism.
• Average size.
• Average wingspan.
• Frail frame.
• Relies too heavily on outside shot.

 

 

it's weird to me how many people are out here begging to be quoted like this in 9 months. I expected it from NFC South fans outside Carolina. But the in house fighting is asinine. And the amount of receipts I'm saving before he even gets picked woo boy.

[Mother Grabber]

10 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

 

Name the best sub 6 foot QB's in NFL history

Bryce Young

[USDepartmentOfSavagery]

35 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

I really hate when people say things like, "well he didn't get hurt in the SEC where he's playing against NFL sized and caliber players every week"

It's just nonsense that doesn't hold up to even the slightest digging into the facts.  Last year the SEC had 65 players drafted, which was the most every by a single conference, but take even half a second to look at it a bit further.  Half of those picks came from 3 teams, Georgia, LSU, and Alabama.  33 of the picks were then spread out across the rest of the conference.

Then factor in that some of them were offensive players, without going through pick by pick, that means there was probably roughly somewhere between 12-20 defensive players drafted from the SEC last year outside of those 3 teams.  

And sure, factor in that some NFL caliber players obviously didn't go pro, but also some future NFL players would have still been young and not at that level yet anyways, so for the sake of argument, let's go with the high end of 20 there and then double that number to take into account players who didn't go pro.

That would mean outside those top 3 teams, there was probably 40ish NFL caliber defensive players in the conference last year, which essentially breaks down to 3-4 NFL quality defensive players per team, of which, how many of them are actually pass rushers?

The argument against Young has never been about height, it's always been about his frame and not how will it hold up on a game by game basis, but over the course of a 17 game season and hopefully a 10+ year career.  So sure, he played a few games against teams loaded with NFL sized and quality players and he got through it, but getting through a few games without getting hurt isn't the issue.

So when people use the argument of him getting thru the SEC for 2 years without getting hurt as the proof that his size shouldn't be a factor, it's just nonsense.  I'd be very curious if someone were to go through the film of every hit he took to find out how many of them were by players of NFL size, speed, strength, etc.  

I'm guessing it's not that many, however still people want to use him getting through the SEC unscathed as the reasoning as to why he'll be able to hold up in the NFL.  But in reality, in his full career at Alabama, he probably took less hits by NFL type of players than he'll take in the first half of his rookie season alone.

[backINblack28]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

And how many of those sized CBs are missing a few games here or there due to being banged up?

That's totally fine for position players to miss a few games, even elite skill position players it's okay.

That's not okay for a franchise QB to miss 2-4 games a year due to being banged up.

but if 300lb DTs do it because they're banged up--it's fine too and something you just won't chalk up to size.  I get the bias. It's objectively asinine.

[TheCasillas]

12 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Name the best sub 6 foot QB's in NFL history

[tukafan21]

Just now, poundaway said:

Ok sub 200.  Show the evidence.  I'll wait.

Show me the evidence of successful sub 200 QB's, I'll wait too (well actually I won't wait, because there isn't any evidence to wait for, because it hasn't happened, ever, in the entire history of the NFL).

We traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and our #1 WR for this pick, why do people want to do that and then bet on someone being the first ever successful player at his size for the position?

Wilson was a 3rd rounder, not the 1st overall pick after trading a haul to get the pick when there is an equally talented prospect also sitting there.  It's called risk assessment, and Young is a far greater risk thank Stroud at #1 overall, even before factoring in what we gave up to get the pick.

[therealmjl]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

jesus fuging christ, how hard is reading comprehension?

I've literally said numerous times I don't give two shits about his height, 

but you literally just told me to name the best sub 6 foot quarterbacks in NFL history:

16 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

It's not that there is a specific cut off, but the whole "show me the evidence that smaller QB's are injured more and have shorter (or less successful) careers" is such a badly flawed argument when the evidence is right there in front of you.

Name the best sub 6 foot QB's in NFL history

When Kyler Murray very well could already be in the Top 5 of that list, it's not a good argument as to why he's a safe pick at #1.  Particularly when you look at the guys on that list, they're short like Bryce, but they have completely different builds.

so which is it? 

 

 

this is suddenly related - did you happen to help CJ Stroud prepare for his S2 test?

Edited April 21, 2023 by therealmjl

[therealmjl]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Show me the evidence of successful sub 200 QB's, I'll wait too (well actually I won't wait, because there isn't any evidence to wait for, because it hasn't happened, ever, in the entire history of the NFL).

We traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and our #1 WR for this pick, why do people want to do that and then bet on someone being the first ever successful player at his size for the position?

Wilson was a 3rd rounder, not the 1st overall pick after trading a haul to get the pick when there is an equally talented prospect also sitting there.  It's called risk assessment, and Young is a far greater risk thank Stroud at #1 overall, even before factoring in what we gave up to get the pick.

What's funny that forever and ever after, Bryce's "official" NFL weight will be over 200 pounds. So there'll never be any evidence of this.

Edited April 21, 2023 by therealmjl

[CPF4LIFE]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Show me the evidence of successful sub 200 QB's, I'll wait too (well actually I won't wait, because there isn't any evidence to wait for, because it hasn't happened, ever, in the entire history of the NFL).

We traded 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and our #1 WR for this pick, why do people want to do that and then bet on someone being the first ever successful player at his size for the position?

Wilson was a 3rd rounder, not the 1st overall pick after trading a haul to get the pick when there is an equally talented prospect also sitting there.  It's called risk assessment, and Young is a far greater risk thank Stroud at #1 overall, even before factoring in what we gave up to get the pick.

I have said this from the very beginning and stand by it. Its crazy to me that people still want to argue against it.

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, backINblack28 said:

Here is part of one team’s pre-draft scouting report, furnished by a former NBA head coach, that listed Stephen Curry’s perceived weaknesses:

• Not a true point guard.
• Out of control at times.
• Shot-selection.
• Stuck between 1 and 2.
• Ability to defend position at next level?
• Lateral quickness.
• Versatility to defend multiple positions.
• Limited upside?
• Backup/Fringe Starter?
• College system makes him difficult to evaluate.
• Average athleticism.
• Average size.
• Average wingspan.
• Frail frame.
• Relies too heavily on outside shot.

 

 

it's weird to me how many people are out here begging to be quoted like this in 9 months. I expected it from NFC South fans outside Carolina. But the in house fighting is asinine. And the amount of receipts I'm saving before he even gets picked woo boy.

Comparing frame for an NFL player and NBA player is just nonsense.  Yes the NBA is a physical sport, but it's nothing compared to the NFL.

Also, if you want to save those receipts, it's not going to do you any good in 9 months.  If you want to go back through my posts and find it, you can, cause I've said it numerous times in the past month.

I think Young is a great prospect, but one who won't hold up for a long career, he'll mostly be fine for his first 2-3 years, but the hits are going to add up and he will start to break down.  I think by year 5, he's no longer a viable NFL starting QB due to not being able to stay on the field for enough games a season to justify paying him a starting QB's salary.

[Wundrbread33]

20 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Still completely missing the point

The SEC measuring stick is about football skill, not staying healthy for what would be the smallest QB in NFL history.

If people want to point to his success as a QB in the SEC, that's completely fair and valid, especially if you want to use it to counter anyone talking about his height.

But when people point to him making it through the SEC healthy, that's where it completely falls apart. and THAT is my point here.  To be a successful QB in the SEC, you play against all positions on defense, but to stay healthy, you have to be able to absorb hits by essentially 3 positions, DE, DT, and pass rushing LB's.

I'd be very curious to know how many hits he took in the last 2 years by NFL level players, I'd bet it's less than 25 over the course of his career.

So essentially what you are saying is that the SEC isn’t the NFL, right?

 

As in, he may have been relatively healthy in the SEC, but it’s still not the NFL. The NFL is a different beast. 
 

 

If so, that argument can be made for anything done in the SEC. Football skill included.

 

“A player played well in the SEC, but the NFL is a different level.”

”A player stayed healthy in the SEC, but the NFL is…”

”A QB had a lot of rushing yards in the SEC, but the NFL is…”

 

 

At the end of the day, the SEC isn’t the NFL, but it’s the closest to the NFL regarding the talent level. It’s the big boy college conference. 
 

Young may get hurt. It may be because he’s small (which will be the default explanation) but it may not be because of his size at all. 
 

Take Corral’s lis franc, and Cam’s lis franc. That is a season ender, and it has nothing to do with size. It’s more of a result of the cleat being planted, while being twisted down to the ground.

poo happens. 
 

I’m not worried about it until I have to be.