Let’s get the record straight on S2

[TheMostInterestingMan]

I’m seeing a ton of people commenting on the S2 after CJs leaked scores that clearly don’t understand what the S2 is exactly or what it’s testing for. And while this has basically been posted before, I want to clear this up and point people in the direction where they can learn about what it does.

Like many here, I had heard of S2 but never bothered to dig into it much in the past. But having the #1 pick really got me digging into what it is after Bryce Young’s score came out. And I admit, knowing what it is I’m a pretty huge believer in the S2 now and not just as it pertains to QB. Positions such as LB, S, WR and CB likely all have significantly higher hit rates with a high S2 score.
 

This is because it isn’t an intelligence test at all. This is a common misconception I keep seeing in the CJ Stroud thread. The S2 does NOT test for intelligence. It tests for the ability to process information, reaction time, improvisation etc. Stroud could score low even if he was the smartest player in the draft. And there’s an important distinction.

The test itself is made up of 7 different sections, each one testing different cognition traits. So one of the tests looks at visual field and processing. So a QB scoring low in this for example, may have tunnel vision. He could score high on the test but on film you may notice he locks onto his first read. This could mean that while he scores high in every section, he scored low in one that directly relates to his field vision.

I don’t want to write a book but if anyone had questions, I’ll be happy to share what I’ve learned in the last week about S2. I also HIGHLY recommend checking out the PFF podcast where they sit with one of the S2 test founders and interview him for about an hour to really understand what it’s testing and how it translates to different positions. It also highlights the importance of each individual section and how some are more specific to certain positions than others.

[Basbear]

good stuff, thanks!

[rmoneyg35]

It’s funny how people thinking the S2 and wonderlic are the same.

[TheMostInterestingMan]

2 minutes ago, rmoneyg35 said:

It’s funny how people thinking the S2 and wonderlic are the same.

Yep. That’s clearly what’s happening but they are ENTIRELY different tests and once you understand what S2 is actually testing, it’s easy to see why it’s a much better metric to use. Its night and day. 

[XClown1986]

It really is an interesting test. They have found a way to test instincts and mental reflexes. There is sometimes no substitute for these traits. Could eventually help to evaluate all kinds of fits in the work force where people are required to think or adapt on the fly. Beats the hell out of the SAT or ACT in my mind. 

[Mr. Scot]

I've actually started to ponder what my score would be if I could take this test.

Mind you, I never played quarterback. My close friend who did wasn't very good with tests

Edited April 21, 2023 by Mr. Scot

[Icege]

20 minutes ago, TheMostInterestingMan said:

I’m seeing a ton of people commenting on the S2 after CJs leaked scores that clearly don’t understand what the S2 is exactly or what it’s testing for. And while this has basically been posted before, I want to clear this up and point people in the direction where they can learn about what it does.

Like many here, I had heard of S2 but never bothered to dig into it much in the past. But having the #1 pick really got me digging into what it is after Bryce Young’s score came out. And I admit, knowing what it is I’m a pretty huge believer in the S2 now and not just as it pertains to QB. Positions such as LB, S, WR and CB likely all have significantly higher hit rates with a high S2 score.
 

This is because it isn’t an intelligence test at all. This is a common misconception I keep seeing in the CJ Stroud thread. The S2 does NOT test for intelligence. It tests for the ability to process information, reaction time, improvisation etc. Stroud could score low even if he was the smartest player in the draft. And there’s an important distinction.

The test itself is made up of 7 different sections, each one testing different cognition traits. So one of the tests looks at visual field and processing. So a QB scoring low in this for example, may have tunnel vision. He could score high on the test but on film you may notice he locks onto his first read. This could mean that while he scores high in every section, he scored low in one that directly relates to his field vision.

I don’t want to write a book but if anyone had questions, I’ll be happy to share what I’ve learned in the last week about S2. I also HIGHLY recommend checking out the PFF podcast where they sit with one of the S2 test founders and interview him for about an hour to really understand what it’s testing and how it translates to different positions. It also highlights the importance of each individual section and how some are more specific to certain positions than others.

Any particular resources that you would recommend for folks interested in learning more about the S2?

 

EDIT: Found the company's primary website and am looking there now. For anybody else that's interested: https://www.s2cognition.com/sports/football

Edited April 21, 2023 by Icege

[TheMostInterestingMan]

Just now, XClown1986 said:

It really is an interesting test. They have found a way to test instincts and mental reflexes. There is sometimes no substitute for these traits. Could eventually help to evaluate all kinds of fits in the work force where people are required to think or adapt on the fly. Beats the hell out of the SAT or ACT in my mind. 

So I’ve been a CJ Stroud guy for six bloody months. I’ve been all in on the Stroud train. Then I heard about the S2 score Bryce boasted and started digging into what this thing is all about. It REALLY warmed me up on Young but still felt I slightly preferred CJ Stroud, but only marginally.

Now here is where my post gets controversial. I have a horrific comparison for Stroud following his scores today… Sounds like a potential Sam Darnold. Now I’m not saying heIS Darnold but Sam was also considered an elite top 3 prospect entering the draft. He could make all the throws, big body, could move fluidly… all the physical markers suggested he could be an elite QB prospect. 
 

His problem is between his ears as has been said here for two years. But he’s also a very intelligent guy. He’s really smart. He’s football smart. So why is he a bad QB?

Perhaps the one thing Sam struggles with is quickly reading a defense and processing that information. This leads to numerous mistakes because he doesn’t have enough time in the pocket to proves what he’s seeing before the pressure gets to him.

So while I’m not saying CJ is going to be on the level of Darnold at all, I think this may be the concern and a legitimate one. Maybe CJ has all the tools and a brilliant football mind but just isn’t capable of processing that information in under 2 and a half seconds. Maybe that’s Darnold and many other QBs issue. Maybe Brady fell so far because he didn’t check many boxes but could process information at lightening speed and that’s something they weren’t testing back when he was entering the draft.

Its an interesting thought for sure.

[TheMostInterestingMan]

5 minutes ago, Icege said:

Any particular resources that you would recommend for folks interested in learning more about the S2?

 

EDIT: Found the company's primary website and am looking there now. For anybody else that's interested: https://www.s2cognition.com/sports/football

I’ll post a few more in here in a few minutes. Granted I drive for a living so most of my information has come from interviews and podcasts but I can provide plenty of those as well as some reading material I’ve come across. 

[TheMostInterestingMan]

I think this is a pretty good watch if you want to dive deep. This is how it translates to another sport but makes a lot of sense and gives a broader scope of what it’s testing for. This sis how MLB is using the test to identify things such as elite level hitters. You have to process and react insane fast to pitches near 100mph so it’s easy to understand why S2 has been an incredibly reliable marker for this.

 

[Bear Hands]

If I’m being honest, exposing bias and give myself the liberty to be unnecessarily judgemental (and be judged) and assess his personality/leadership:

I’ve been a big Stroud fan but my instincts tell me he’s the type that needs an advocate. JSN was his mouthpiece and outside of the UGA game, he’s never really just taken the keys for the car that was OSU. I’ll admit, it’s all based on my feel to him via interviews, nothing more. He’s the quiet leader, which honestly, some of the best have been. But watch his interviews with teammates—They’re buddy buddy but there’s just a lack of “this is the guy” with him. He’s not a proactive type, no sense of when to press the gas, stop the brakes type. He thrives off the support of others to drive. And I can see hints of his reflexes/response style with the pace/demeanor to him. Solo taking a test may be an issue. And when plays break down, there can be issues.

When I see other OSU players vs Bama, I’m just unsure exactly how impactful of a leader he was. Seeing how Saban, Anderson and Branch speak about Bryce is telling for me.  It’s less what’s wrong about CJ and more about the combination of sharpness, composure, football IQ, team mentality that I can just see a whole locker room being 150% there for Bryce.

man’s I’ve preferred CJ for most of the process but that’s just the vibe I get. 

[TheMostInterestingMan]

Here’s the PFF podcast with S2 co-founder Brandon Ally discussing the test and how it translates to different positions on the football field 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4JT7T4pdY&pp=ygUYUGZmIHBvZGNhc3QgYnJhbmRvbiBhbGx5

[panthers55]

36 minutes ago, TheMostInterestingMan said:

I’m seeing a ton of people commenting on the S2 after CJs leaked scores that clearly don’t understand what the S2 is exactly or what it’s testing for. And while this has basically been posted before, I want to clear this up and point people in the direction where they can learn about what it does.

Like many here, I had heard of S2 but never bothered to dig into it much in the past. But having the #1 pick really got me digging into what it is after Bryce Young’s score came out. And I admit, knowing what it is I’m a pretty huge believer in the S2 now and not just as it pertains to QB. Positions such as LB, S, WR and CB likely all have significantly higher hit rates with a high S2 score.
 

This is because it isn’t an intelligence test at all. This is a common misconception I keep seeing in the CJ Stroud thread. The S2 does NOT test for intelligence. It tests for the ability to process information, reaction time, improvisation etc. Stroud could score low even if he was the smartest player in the draft. And there’s an important distinction.

The test itself is made up of 7 different sections, each one testing different cognition traits. So one of the tests looks at visual field and processing. So a QB scoring low in this for example, may have tunnel vision. He could score high on the test but on film you may notice he locks onto his first read. This could mean that while he scores high in every section, he scored low in one that directly relates to his field vision.

I don’t want to write a book but if anyone had questions, I’ll be happy to share what I’ve learned in the last week about S2. I also HIGHLY recommend checking out the PFF podcast where they sit with one of the S2 test founders and interview him for about an hour to really understand what it’s testing and how it translates to different positions. It also highlights the importance of each individual section and how some are more specific to certain positions than others.

The issue isn't whether the test measures what is supposed to or even if a person over time scores similarly without significant practice effect. It is whether small differences in processing speed, visual field, spatial visualization, roblem solving which are actually measured by many nonverbal IQ tests to differing extents, is predictive of success in the NFl.  To say no one who ever scored low actually suceeded suggests no outliers at all which I suggest is because the N is too low. Beyond that though is the other end of the spectrum.  How many scored high and didn't succeed. You need to know that to decide what to think of Young. Was a difference of 10 points predictive of success or failure or was it only at the extremes which would be predictable. What if a really low score is a big reg flag but small differences in scores don't really mean much about success. 

[TheMostInterestingMan]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

The issue isn't whether the test measures what is supposed to or even if a person over time scores similarly without significant practice effect. It is whether small differences in processing speed, visual field, spatial visualization, roblem solving which are actually measured by many nonverbal IQ tests to differing extents, is predictive of success in the NFl.  To say no one who ever scored low actually suceeded suggests no outliers at all which I suggest is because the N is too low. Beyond that though is the other end of the spectrum.  How many scored high and didn't succeed. You need to know that to decide what to think of Young. Was a difference of 10 points predictive of success or failure or was it only at the extremes which would be predictable. What if a really low score is a big reg flag but small differences in scores don't really mean much about success. 

That’s why nobody is using it to rank their draft board alone. You could have all the physical tools but be unable to process information fast enough to succeed in the NFL (maybe Darnold?) or have an elite S2 score but physically be unable to use that ability against elite NFL athletes (the potential worry about Bryce Young).

The point of this post is to explain to people what the S2 actually is and what it actually measures. 

There is direct correlations of how successful of a marker the S2 is both in baseball and in football however. And the evidence suggests that you are indeed much more likely to succeed if you have a high score. And that makes perfect sense once you understand what it is measuring.