A Different Perspective on the Young vs Stroud Decision

[OldhamA]

46 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

My concern with Young is pretty simple. Does he translate to the NFL or is he a really good natural QB whose physical limitations will catch up to him at the highest level?

I honestly think there are less questions about Stroud in terms of projecting his translation to the NFL.

To me, it really boils down this way...

Young: You're betting on his natural talent in terms of his feel for and understanding of the game and you think that is more than enough to compensate for his physical shortcomings... and that he can take the physical tools of playing QB in the NFL at his stature.

Stroud: You're betting on the good total package. Good but not great arm. Good but not great size. Good but not great athleticism. Feels like the safest pick of the bunch but might have a borderline top 10 type NFL QB ceiling.

Richardson: You're betting that you can help him develop the mental and technical aspects of his game to catch up with his immense physical talent. He and Bryce Young are basically the opposite sides of the same coin.

Levis: You should stop hanging out late night with Jim Irsay and consider rehab.

I think Richardson is further along mentally than you give him credit for, but the rest is fair.

[MHS831]

19 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I'm curious where do you see CJ's ceiling or comparison to?

I've heard Joe Burrow, Drew Brees, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Geno Smith, etc. 

I think CJ is more of a boom or bust project than Young--higher ceiling, lower floor.  I see CJ somewhere between Burrow and Goff--if you take Goff's entire career.  Burrow may be a bit much, but if he has the tools, I think he could be special--or not.  hard to say--good question!

[Matthias]

Somebody asked if Stroud and Young were the same size, would it be any question who was the number one pick.  For me, I would still go with Stroud because I favor his style of play.  That's not to say Young is a scrambler or anything like that, but he is more big play ball.  I like the guy who is more methodical.  A 10 yard pass here, a slant there.  Just someone who gets under the opposing defense's skin.  Above all else, as I said of Stroud before, throwing is effortless for him.  There is nothing like a skill that is second nature, and Stroud's skill is throwing.


So can I live with it as a Panther's fan if we don't pick him and Young struggles.  It would be like for me, the same feeling I had when Tom Brady threw those three miracle bombs to Mike Evans to end our run for the playoffs.  I was asking myself what in the living heck are we doing out there?  How can we let this happen?  All you had to do was put a safety over the top, and it wasn't like Mike Evans was the fastest guy in the world. (I still want to dump CJ Henderson and Keith Taylor from this team for their transgressions LOL!)  If we pick Young and he bombs, I'm going to be thinking 'What are we doing'?

I wouldn't feel this way if Stroud wasn't available by the way.  If Stroud stayed in college for instance, and the top QBs available were Young/Richardson/Levis, I would be 1000% okay with picking Young and letting the consequences be what they would be.  I just feel like Stroud is about as a sure lock for greatness as there can be outside of a Peyton Manning, John Elway, or once in a generation type.  My feeling is Stroud's floor is a longer version of Andrew Luck's career.

[MHS831]

56 minutes ago, Martin said:

One big issue for me is that I have serious doubts Young can do in the NFL what he did in college. I don’t think he has the arm to be “a Mahomes”. On the other hand I think Strouds game translates really well. And I love him as an awesome pure passer.

Yeah, you are looking for the QB who steps up in the pros, not back or down.  Jared Allen is a great example--Jalen Hurts to a degree---Stroud has that ability--probably more than Young.

[gmonjimbo]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Fair take IMO.

But damn... that game against UGA against the best D this side of the NFL was REALLY damn good though...

Honestly, I'm just avoiding getting emotionally attached to any particular prospect. I can fully understand the arguments for and against Young, Stroud, and Richardson. I can see all three becoming very good NFL QBs and I can see all three busting. Odds are ATL east one of them will pan out. I hope the guy we draft does.

Agreed. It's an exciting time to be a Panthers fan! 

Besides the pressure of getting the No.1 pick right at QB is the landscape of the NFC South and NFC, in general.

Our NFC South  rival QBs are Derek Carr, Desmond Riddler, and Baker Mayfield.

Then outside of that is Justin Fields, Kirk Cousins, Brock Purdy, Jared Goff, Dak, Sam Howell, etc. Only Jalen Hurts is considered top tier category at QB in NFC as the rest are in AFC. 

The Panthers can swing the pendulum in their favor in the NFC if the QB they get pans out. 

[LinvilleGorge]

7 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

I think Richardson is further along mentally than you give him credit for, but the rest is fair.

I think he is too, but he definitely doesn't have the natural feel for the game that Young has and there's plenty to work on technically. 

I just see them as opposite prospects in terms of how you're trying to project this particular guy to the NFL. For Young, you're almost completely leaning on intangibles. For Richardson, you're almost completely leaning on measurables.

[gmonjimbo]

On Anthony Richardson. His biggest test IMO during the draft process is the private visits and interviews where NFL coaches can review his tape, and ask him about calls and protections - to gauge if the finer works of being a QB will match his athleticism. I think the Panthers, Colts, and Seahawks are the best places for him to land. Panthers have two former NFL QBs and former NFL HC on their staff.  Adam Steichen worked with Jalen Hurts and the Seahawks won't expect him to start with Geno Smith as the bridge QB. 

[thefuzz]

40 minutes ago, Matthias said:

Somebody asked if Stroud and Young were the same size, would it be any question who was the number one pick.  For me, I would still go with Stroud because I favor his style of play.  That's not to say Young is a scrambler or anything like that, but he is more big play ball.  I like the guy who is more methodical.  A 10 yard pass here, a slant there.  Just someone who gets under the opposing defense's skin.  Above all else, as I said of Stroud before, throwing is effortless for him.  There is nothing like a skill that is second nature, and Stroud's skill is throwing.


So can I live with it as a Panther's fan if we don't pick him and Young struggles.  It would be like for me, the same feeling I had when Tom Brady threw those three miracle bombs to Mike Evans to end our run for the playoffs.  I was asking myself what in the living heck are we doing out there?  How can we let this happen?  All you had to do was put a safety over the top, and it wasn't like Mike Evans was the fastest guy in the world. (I still want to dump CJ Henderson and Keith Taylor from this team for their transgressions LOL!)  If we pick Young and he bombs, I'm going to be thinking 'What are we doing'?

I wouldn't feel this way if Stroud wasn't available by the way.  If Stroud stayed in college for instance, and the top QBs available were Young/Richardson/Levis, I would be 1000% okay with picking Young and letting the consequences be what they would be.  I just feel like Stroud is about as a sure lock for greatness as there can be outside of a Peyton Manning, John Elway, or once in a generation type.  My feeling is Stroud's floor is a longer version of Andrew Luck's career.

CJ's style of play makes it easier for those around him, Young's makes everyone else's job harder.

Line may or may not know where you are going.  WR's may not know what you are trying to do, or where to be, etc...

I hope this is a choice between two HOF'ers, not likely, but I'm hoping....in that instance you are kinda sitting here picking between Russell Wilson and Peyton Manning.  They are both great, both will wear gold jackets together...but you may prefer one play style to the other.

I prefer Manning.

[DrowsyJungle]

When I watch pundits talk about this draft it's usually the ones that have never played QB that promote Young. Then when I listen to people that have actually played the position they usually fall in love with Stroud. I'd bet that the front office staff is the same way. 

[Sgt Schultz]

1 hour ago, Matthias said:

Somebody asked if Stroud and Young were the same size, would it be any question who was the number one pick.  For me, I would still go with Stroud because I favor his style of play.  That's not to say Young is a scrambler or anything like that, but he is more big play ball.  I like the guy who is more methodical.  A 10 yard pass here, a slant there.  Just someone who gets under the opposing defense's skin.  Above all else, as I said of Stroud before, throwing is effortless for him.  There is nothing like a skill that is second nature, and Stroud's skill is throwing.


So can I live with it as a Panther's fan if we don't pick him and Young struggles.  It would be like for me, the same feeling I had when Tom Brady threw those three miracle bombs to Mike Evans to end our run for the playoffs.  I was asking myself what in the living heck are we doing out there?  How can we let this happen?  All you had to do was put a safety over the top, and it wasn't like Mike Evans was the fastest guy in the world. (I still want to dump CJ Henderson and Keith Taylor from this team for their transgressions LOL!)  If we pick Young and he bombs, I'm going to be thinking 'What are we doing'?

I wouldn't feel this way if Stroud wasn't available by the way.  If Stroud stayed in college for instance, and the top QBs available were Young/Richardson/Levis, I would be 1000% okay with picking Young and letting the consequences be what they would be.  I just feel like Stroud is about as a sure lock for greatness as there can be outside of a Peyton Manning, John Elway, or once in a generation type.  My feeling is Stroud's floor is a longer version of Andrew Luck's career.

And let's face it, they are not the same size.  I got the point of the question, but that is essentially asking if we remove the biggest concern/liability on one prospect, which one is better?  If you are comparing two houses, and you like one a lot and love the other but have real concerns about whether it is too small, you can't base the decision on which one you would pick if they were the same size.  They aren't.

[Bear Hands]

I don't quite agree with the notion that Young is this obviously better QB if he was taller.  I don't agree he'd be this runaway #1 if they were both 6'3.

Young may have shown more composure & creativity out-of-structure (this year's newly pegged term), but if you can do something once, you can do it again and Stroud showed growth and game in the biggest moments. 

At the end of the day, what I really want isn that accuracy+arm combination with the least amount of red flags.  That is simply Stroud.  Now, I'm not concerned with Bryce's height, I'd be thrilled with him, but this notion that CJ is a high floor/low ceiling type is just shallow.  When you're that accurate with an NFL-level/non-Pennington arm, the sky is the limit.        

[tukafan21]

5 hours ago, MHS831 said:

Devil's advocate--If the two were equal in size, who is the better QB?  Justin Fields is the best NFL QB to ever come out of Ohio State--he is completing below 60% of his passes and has 24 TDs and 21 Ints.  Before him?  A long line of busts who were solid at Ohio State.

Name a QB who has had better WRs than Stroud?  Is the Big 10 an easier conference than the SEC in terms of passing attack?  In other words, is Stroud really that good, or is he fool's gold--another product of the system?  Who is better throwing under pressure (Stroud or Young)? 

Don't get caught up in the visible measurables--there is a lot you cannot see.  Pro Days and Combines simply shows what the body can do--it does not measure the mind/intelligence of the QB.  That is what the Panthers are doing, but to assume that Stroud will break the OSU curse or that Young will be oft injured because he is small is bias.

So--who do I want?  Stroud--if  he can process nearly as effectively as Young.  Young, if he can process as quickly as I think he can--because nobody is his equal in that area, and that is the most important quality of any NFL QB. 

Sure--many may disagree--but the mind test is the most important comparison, imo.

If they were the same size, then yea, I'm probably taking Young, but not by a wide margin at all, it would still be very close.  As I've said numerous times, size isn't the only factor, it's just part of the equation and has to be factored in, and with Stroud and Young so close as prospects, it ends up being the final tally in Stroud's favor.

Also have said many times that if it was Young vs Levis or AR, then you take Young.

You have one big error in your thinking here...

You say that assuming Young will be oft injured because he is small is bias, which is correct.

But you also say that thinking Stroud will break the OSU curse is also bias, which is woefully incorrect, it's the exact opposite.  Thinking Stroud will bust because OSU QB's bust, is the bias, just like thinking the size will be an issue for Young.

That's what also bothers me in the whole Young vs Stroud debate, it comes down to two things for most people size vs OSU's QB history.  So people want to knock Stroud for past players not succeeding while giving Young a pass for something that absolutely is a known concern for him, not past players from his school.

[mrcompletely11]

41 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

If they were the same size, then yea, I'm probably taking Young, but not by a wide margin at all, it would still be very close.  As I've said numerous times, size isn't the only factor, it's just part of the equation and has to be factored in, and with Stroud and Young so close as prospects, it ends up being the final tally in Stroud's favor.

Also have said many times that if it was Young vs Levis or AR, then you take Young.

You have one big error in your thinking here...

You say that assuming Young will be oft injured because he is small is bias, which is correct.

But you also say that thinking Stroud will break the OSU curse is also bias, which is woefully incorrect, it's the exact opposite.  Thinking Stroud will bust because OSU QB's bust, is the bias, just like thinking the size will be an issue for Young.

That's what also bothers me in the whole Young vs Stroud debate, it comes down to two things for most people size vs OSU's QB history.  So people want to knock Stroud for past players not succeeding while giving Young a pass for something that absolutely is a known concern for him, not past players from his school.

What about the Bama curse?

[Jackie Lee]

I just don't think Bryce is gonna get this much space in the NFL consistently. Stroud seemed to generally play with a lot more pressure in the pocket than Bryce