Just for the sake of discussion, is there a correlation between size and injury?

[XClown1986]

It really is going to come down to knowing how to protect oneself when getting hit. Even 6'5 250 pound QBs like Cam had to learn how to slide and know when to run out of bounds or throw the ball away. Not doing so is asking for a shorter, injury plagued career (as we have seen). Some positions can't avoid contact, but QB is a position where it becomes a decision. Some bigger QBs can withstand hits better, but it adds up in the long run. Even now, the Bills are very aware of how much Josh Allen is getting hit and are making a conscious effort to reduce that significantly. 

Two types of QBs scare me in terms of getting hit:

1. QBs that can't feel the pressure approaching or have no awareness of defenders on a blitz and have no time to prepare for the hit, thus taking hits like a crash test dummy.

2. QBs that drop their shoulder on a run or roll out instead of sliding.

Injuries are a part of the game, but it really has to do with decision making and play-style, moreso than size. I remember seeing Jeff Garcia take the full weight of Kris Jenkins and he rolled around on the ground in agony for a minute or so. But he got up, finished, and even won the game (I believe so... It was a while back). Some of the better QBs in the league at staying healthy, did so because they knew presnap where they wanted to put the ball, called the right protections, and got it out quickly.

[stan786]

Just now, ForJimmy said:

Yeah and I am not sure you want him taking snaps from under center.  He never really did in college.  I mean his size will be outside the data range of successful QBs, so it's really hard to estimate what that looks like.  People keep bringing up Brees, but Bress has like 2 inches and 20ish pounds on Young.  Comparing Brees's size to Young is like comparing Mahomes's size to Brees.  It's still more significant than some people are thinking on here.  

Yeah I guess i'm surprised people arent more worried about his height, it feels like the frame comment gets overplayed comped to the height a bit. I think there are legit size reasons to have concern other than this "I know he's going to get more hurt than everyone just because". There are a lot of scheme things you have to work through. I know Reich generally prefers to line up in the shotgun more, but not sure if there is some concern there from him or not.

[ForJimmy]

6 minutes ago, rayzor said:

but will his elusiveness and spacial awareness keep him from taking more hits and will his flexibility allow him to cut down on the force of blows? 

i think if he was more of a pocket QB that he would be more prone to taking big hits. Scrambling around the backfield usually makes a QB less likely to take a hit. I think Cam's worse injuries happened when he was in the pocket and wasn't on the move. 

It's a real big question mark.  I have seen many top picks have great elusiveness in college, but not so much in the NFL.  If we draft him I will definitely be holding my breath when a Myles Garrett lands on him.  Now if he can keep that elusiveness then he could be special.

I'm not sure about that whole pocket passer increasing injury risk.  Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Brady, and Brees were pocket passers that were quick to get the ball out and they rarely got hurt.  Cam had no left tackle and held the ball too long (probably due to his elusiveness).  I've seen a lot of these pocket guys simply throw the ball away when pressure gets rough to live to fight another day which isn't a bad thing...

[Tr3ach]

23 minutes ago, ladypanther said:

Too many variables to be able to draw any conclusions from that article but it is a good question.  Would be nice to be able to focus in on QB's alone.

It does further down the article.  It actually shows bigger qbs are injured more often.  Which is probably a fluke but does help say weight doesnt have much to do with qb injuries.

[Tr3ach]

6 minutes ago, XClown1986 said:

It really is going to come down to knowing how to protect oneself when getting hit. Even 6'5 250 pound QBs like Cam had to learn how to slide and know when to run out of bounds or throw the ball away. Not doing so is asking for a shorter, injury plagued career (as we have seen). Some positions can't avoid contact, but QB is a position where it becomes a decision. Some bigger QBs can withstand hits better, but it adds up in the long run. Even now, the Bills are very aware of how much Josh Allen is getting hit and are making a conscious effort to reduce that significantly. 

Two types of QBs scare me in terms of getting hit:

1. QBs that can't feel the pressure approaching or have no awareness of defenders on a blitz and have no time to prepare for the hit, thus taking hits like a crash test dummy.

2. QBs that drop their shoulder on a run or roll out instead of sliding.

Injuries are a part of the game, but it really has to do with decision making and play-style, moreso than size. I remember seeing Jeff Garcia take the full weight of Kris Jenkins and he rolled around on the ground in agony for a minute or so. But he got up, finished, and even won the game (I believe so... It was a while back). Some of the better QBs in the league at staying healthy, did so because they knew presnap where they wanted to put the ball, called the right protections, and got it out quickly.

Two of the best big prospects coming out were Cam and Luck.  Both of them were plagued by injuries.  It seems like common sense that a smaller qb would get hurt more but thats not what the stats say.

[ladypanther]

Just now, Tr3ach said:

It does further down the article.  It actually shows bigger qbs are injured more often.  Which is probably a fluke but does help say weight doesnt have much to do with qb injuries.

But is that because of what they are doing (like running)?    Hard to actually compare apples to apples.

[ECHornet]

24 minutes ago, rightturn said:

I think all one needs to know about size and the qb position is that young would literally be the smallest to play the position by a country mile and that’s telling.   So you are banging on young to be the anomaly of all anomalies.   That’s a huge gamble when jobs are on the line.   

If you ignore all combine measurements and run with your own hypothetical “playing weight” for Young, then you’re onto something. 

[TheCasillas]

there is recency bias with the Tua situation.

[stan786]

1 minute ago, TheCasillas said:

there is recency bias with the Tua situation.

Tua weighs more than CJ does though, I dont get why its not an indictment on them both.

[LinvilleGorge]

One big issue is that at the fringes of the size ranges the sample size shrinks dramatically. 

At Bryce Young's size for QBs the sample size is a goose egg.

[stan786]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

One big issue is that at the fringes of the size ranges the sample size shrinks dramatically. 

At Bryce Young's size for QBs the sample size is a goose egg.

This is true, and I think there is a real argument when it comes to him being an outlier and if he can ascend that. I would argue there is plenty of data for 210-240 and if it shows a reduction in injuries as you get lower so automatically assuming its going to dramatically jump at 195-205 or whatever feels a bit dubious.

[TheRumGone]

some players are “better” at taking hits. I have no idea if Bryce is one of those players. 

[Moorgan]

9 minutes ago, stan786 said:

I've been arguing this in this chat for a while so it'll come as no surprise here.

I'd love to see something other than people giving me a gut feel on where the magical number on the scale is that injuries happen less. Kyler isnt that much smaller than CJ but they use him as an example, Tua weighs more than CJ but they use him as an example.

There is plenty of QBs big and small that have been hurt at differing rates in the NFL. There have been small QBs that have played for 15+ years, there have been big QBs who've only made it like 6-7. There is so many factors in play when it comes to QB weight and there really isnt any data that correlates with skinner players being hurt at some insane rate.

I know it feels good to just logically think about it, but feels like there is a large portion of this board automatically downgrading a player based on something they feel should be true but hasnt played out that way.

 

You can’t say you want to see stats instead of gut feelings to make an argument and then acknowledge that there are no stats bc no one has done what he’s doing.

There’s been one player that is the same size as Young that I can think of. Doug Flutie.

Flutie NFL stats aren’t great bc he didn’t always start. He played in 91 games, has 107 sacks. However, I couldn’t find any notes of any major injuries. If you add his CFL and USFL stats, he has an impressive career and was also a running threat. He threw a lot of picks so arguably Young is probably better at everything.

So I think Young people should hang their hats on Doug Flutie (mentor to Brees) as the only guy who is absolutely tiny and played QB. I found a groin injury during training camp and that was basically it.

[Beast_3000]

I get the conversation you want to discuss, but the article talks primarily about lower body injuries due to weight. That’s not what analyst and GM’s are concerned with when discussing  Bryce Young. Even the statistics gathered in this article have no direct correlation to a quarterbacks like Young. How can it possibly discuss Young when he will be the first of his size? 
He’s elusive but what happens when Nick Bosa or Bobby Wagner blind sides him. I know there are rules to protect QB’s against body weight but what happens when a 300 pound man lands on Bryce? Or better yet he gets closed in a pocket where he can not escape and a 300 pound lineman possibly steps on his ankle or any part of his  lower leg???  Do you trust him to avoid body weight for maybe 5 years? I’m not even talking about the next 15 years that we want for a franchise QB drafted 1 overall. 
 

I love the player I just dont think you gamble with a billion dollar decision. What’s the point of spending  millions getting offensive minded coaches if they aren’t willing to take the safer pick Stroud and develop him ? Strouds doesn’t have any glaring weaknesses and seems like he has room to grow.