John Ellis on Stroud v Young

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I'm not talking about yards or advocating for Bryce Young to run the read option like I assume the team that drafts Anthony Richardson will. 

I'm talking about mobility within and outside the pocket. There isn't necessarily a quantifiable metric that I'm aware of that tracks - extended plays, rush attempts, or throws on the run into one number for QBs. So I used rush attempts. The idea is that college QB tends to move even less when they enter the NFL - which is understandable. 

The only QB I can think of that moves more in the NFL than they did in College is Justin Fields - who ran an unofficial 4.44 at his pro day. 

 

 

Why do you quote rushing attempts and then shift to mobility in the pocket?   Those aren’t the same thing.    

[gmonjimbo]

1 hour ago, Wes21 said:

So Nick Saban is going to tell me this guy isn't open, and Bryce should try to run for the first down?  I didn't realize Bryce was just a victim of bad coaching, and that's how Nick told him to play football.  But hey, it was a nice run!

With respect. I can find lowlights and highlights for any QB. In general how do they perform is what im looking at. What Saban said about Bryce is in tune with what Scott Fitterer said about Young two weeks before the Alabama's pro day. 

- Scott Fitterer 

"And the way he talks football, it was so fluid coming out of his mouth. Coaches couldn’t even get the question out and he’s already answering, or he went on to answer before they even asked the question because he understands the game so much.

So, yeah, he’s not a big man, but he does so many things well. He sees the field, he processes quickly, he makes the right decisions and he’s just a really good person on top of it. Really smart, really good person.”

 

Also, Josh McCown in his 25-minute scouting reporting with Josh Norris before he was hired by the Panthers looks at 10 throws from Young's game against LSU. At 20 minute mark he talks about reading coverage and setting protections, which you don't see a lot in college. 

 

Bryce Young is not the perfect prospect. I'm not here to change your opinion. I only challenged the idea that he made Jermaine Burton and JaCorey Brooks look worse than they are because he can't read the field well or go through his progressions. 

[frankw]

15 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Why do you quote rushing attempts and then shift to mobility in the pocket?   Those aren’t the same thing.    

Yeah and Young skipped everything at the combine anyways. Well outside of the weigh in. Which he then skipped again at his own pro day. We keep hammering each other on the size and durability discussion but I find myself circling back to the combine. Why didn't he participate anyways? Was it because he was concerned about his shoulder? It's just rather odd for a guy under consideration for the top pick. We can argue over the significance of that in terms of the evaluation process but it's just a red flag to me. If we hadn't traded up and given up talent and resources to get to 1 that would be different but given that we did some of this is problematic to me and I'm surprised it isn't talked about more given the level of hype some have been making for Young.

[gmonjimbo]

23 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Why do you quote rushing attempts and then shift to mobility in the pocket?   Those aren’t the same thing.    

If you go back to my original statement in the quotes below. I mentioned rush attempts and mobility inside and outside the pocket. I didn't include yards because I'm not advocating for Stroud to run the read option in the NFL. The real crux is does Stroud play more like he did in 1 game vs the 24 others he played. I see Stroud more of a prototypical pocket passer that moves on occasion.

If he moves more within and outside the pocket in the NFL. I can understand McCown's comparison of Stroud to Joe Burrow. Otherwise, I see him in the range of Jared Goff, Kirk Cousins, and Derek Carr - fringe pro bowl-level QBs 

"for Stroud call me dubious in thinking after 79 total rush attempts in 2 years of college and a traditional pocket passer approach to the game he will use his mobility more inside and outside the pocket. What tends to happen in the NFL, is that a QB moves less."

[Martin]

48 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

If you go back to my original statement in the quotes below. I mentioned rush attempts and mobility inside and outside the pocket. I didn't include yards because I'm not advocating for Stroud to run the read option in the NFL. The real crux is does Stroud play more like he did in 1 game vs the 24 others he played. I see Stroud more of a prototypical pocket passer that moves on occasion.

If he moves more within and outside the pocket in the NFL. I can understand McCown's comparison of Stroud to Joe Burrow. Otherwise, I see him in the range of Jared Goff, Kirk Cousins, and Derek Carr - fringe pro bowl-level QBs 

"for Stroud call me dubious in thinking after 79 total rush attempts in 2 years of college and a traditional pocket passer approach to the game he will use his mobility more inside and outside the pocket. What tends to happen in the NFL, is that a QB moves less."

I’ve only seen a few games, but my feeling is that Young likes to run around and therefore leaves the pocket too early on many occasions, while Stroud hangs in there. What have you seen?

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, Martin said:

I’ve only seen a few games, but my feeling is that Young likes to run around and therefore leaves the pocket too early on many occasions, while Stroud hangs in there. What have you seen?

thats exactly what he does, jimbo tried to tie rushing attempts into this and was quickly corrected

[*FreeFua*]

1 hour ago, frankw said:

Yeah and Young skipped everything at the combine anyways. Well outside of the weigh in. Which he then skipped again at his own pro day. We keep hammering each other on the size and durability discussion but I find myself circling back to the combine. Why didn't he participate anyways? Was it because he was concerned about his shoulder? It's just rather odd for a guy under consideration for the top pick. We can argue over the significance of that in terms of the evaluation process but it's just a red flag to me. If we hadn't traded up and given up talent and resources to get to 1 that would be different but given that we did some of this is problematic to me and I'm surprised it isn't talked about more given the level of hype some have been making for Young.

I assume he didn’t throw because he was full of water and felt like garbage 

[gmonjimbo]

55 minutes ago, Martin said:

I’ve only seen a few games, but my feeling is that Young likes to run around and therefore leaves the pocket too early on many occasions, while Stroud hangs in there. What have you seen?

A good game to watch is the game vs Tennessee. I think he threw about 50 times. That game shows his full skillset positive and negative traits. He throws from within and outside the pocket - short, intermediate, and deep passes. Also, I recommend Josh McCown's analysis of Young's game against LSU. It's about 25 minutes long but he goes in-depth on 10 throws Young made in the game 

 My take on Young is he can play well from within and outside the pocket. As a playmaker, he has a tendency to overextend plays or look for the home run instead of simple completion. This was more pronounced in his 2022 season as the talent level at the receiver position at Alabama this year was lackluster compared to their previous 5 years.

Stroud is a prototype pocket passer that stays on script and in rhythm. I think he is a good prospect at QB. Like some posters, my only concerns are adjusting to a receiving core in Carolina or Houston as I don't believe he will go past 2 that are inferior in talent at WR compared to what he had at OSU, along with building off his performance against Georgia where he used his legs more. 

[gmonjimbo]

1 hour ago, mrcompletely11 said:

thats exactly what he does, jimbo tried to tie rushing attempts into this and was quickly corrected

I think the point is being missed. I mentioned rushing attempts and mobility within and outside the pocket in the original post. It's more to playstyle not a judgment on a player's performance. CJ is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't move as much as someone with his athletic profile.

What's being discussed is whether he can play more like he did against Georgia or the other games he played at OSU in the NFL. 

 

[Martin]

21 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

I think the point is being missed. I mentioned rushing attempts and mobility within and outside the pocket in the original post. It's more to playstyle not a judgment on a player's performance. CJ is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't move as much as someone with his athletic profile.

What's being discussed is whether he can play more like he did against Georgia or the other games he played at OSU in the NFL. 

 

My concern is Young gravitating towards running around looking for the big play too much, you win in the nfl by taking what’s there and the occasional big play. I appreciate your perspective.

[Wes21]

14 hours ago, gmonjimbo said:

With respect. I can find lowlights and highlights for any QB.

This answer is the ultimate cop out.  Why discuss ANY prospect EVER?  They all have good plays and bad plays, so what's the point?  Am I doing it right?

[Wes21]

14 hours ago, frankw said:

Yeah and Young skipped everything at the combine anyways. Well outside of the weigh in. Which he then skipped again at his own pro day. We keep hammering each other on the size and durability discussion but I find myself circling back to the combine. Why didn't he participate anyways? Was it because he was concerned about his shoulder? It's just rather odd for a guy under consideration for the top pick. We can argue over the significance of that in terms of the evaluation process but it's just a red flag to me. If we hadn't traded up and given up talent and resources to get to 1 that would be different but given that we did some of this is problematic to me and I'm surprised it isn't talked about more given the level of hype some have been making for Young.

It used to be the norm for the top prospects to skip parts of the combine.  Matt Stafford for instance didn't throw at the combine, even though he would have shined throwing next to the other prospects with his cannon arm.  Then for the last decade or so guys have chosen to compete.  I think the mindset might have changed recently (for whatever reason) and agents are now advising their clients to sit out some stuff at the combine.  That's not just at QB.  It will be interesting to see what becomes the new normal.

In Young's case I think his arm is simply not on the level of the other 3 top guys.  So if I were advising him I wouldn't want him on the same field as those guys either.  Especially when he's carrying some extra weight to fake the weigh in at over 200 lbs. LOL

[ncsfinest21]

On 3/27/2023 at 6:07 PM, gibran said:

charles johnson and steve smith dont seem to see a problem and they had better careers than both those guys

MJ also had a better career but botched on draft picks so that point is useless. Give me the guy with accuracy and great footwork. I want a great QB who can throw it on a dime and in stride. 

[ncsfinest21]

On 3/29/2023 at 9:16 PM, gmonjimbo said:

I think the point is being missed. I mentioned rushing attempts and mobility within and outside the pocket in the original post. It's more to playstyle not a judgment on a player's performance. CJ is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't move as much as someone with his athletic profile.

What's being discussed is whether he can play more like he did against Georgia or the other games he played at OSU in the NFL. 

 

IMO, I'd rather have the player that played all the games except GA that averaged almost 300 yards passing. Id rather he not scramble but only if he has to but showed you he can. Young tries to scramble he will break apart like a lego.