John Ellis on Stroud v Young

[stan786]

5 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Peyton played until he was like 38 which at the time was pretty good. He hurt his neck, but the reason he retired was his arm declined quite a bit that last year. If we are getting a Peyton Manning career I’d take it in a heartbeat. Brady is s great pocket passer as well but he sold his soul to the devil so he doesn’t count.

It’s interesting because Stroud said he learned to play when he was little by watching Drew Brees. 

Yeah Peyton played on that neck a lot longer than he should have, his last 7ish years almost felt like he was Frankenstein lol. Always impressed what he was able to accomplish on it.

[rightturn]

10 hours ago, Luciu5 said:

He's not gonna get taller without leg extensions. Idk anything about that with a athlete. But he's 5' 10 not 5' 5". I don't doubt he is 185. He ate shrimp and a salad at the pro day dinner. He most likely has a high metabolism. Day after the draft, the team that drafts him will have him on a high calorie diet and lift heavy. He can easily carry +15-20 lbs more muscle. He has not maxed out his frame - at all.

If he could add 15lbs of muscle the. He would have done it at world class bama.  

[MHS831]

If this becomes about the size of the QB, then we all know who the pick is going to be.  Stroud has had the much better WRs to throw to and he has played in the weaker conference. Does that mean he cannot play QB?  Nope.  But before you put your eggs into one basket, remember this: Young was good enough at 5'10" to beat out all competition at the most prestigious college football program in the nation.  If his size is a detriment, it is also a reason to admire him more than the others.

Sam Darnold was good in college.  He has the size and the physical skills needed to be a great pro qb--why did he not become one?  Was it coaching?  I don't know.  But he was 6-4 and can spin it.  What the hell is the big problem? 

I think the reason QB is so hard to gauge is based on 2 things in general:

1. This situation.  Most elite QBs go to struggling programs and are forced into the "messiah" role too early because fans and coaches pressure the process.  These are 22-year old kids, and suddenly, they are determining the success a billion dollar business behind a bad OL. 

2. The things that are important as a QB cannot be easily seen.  How quickly do they process?  Imagine, in college, a successful QB needs to process a play in 1 second.  50% of the top QBs in college can do that.  They are drafted. In the NFL, that processing window closes to .8 of a second.  Of those that are drafted, only 25% can do that.  If they do not learn or their situations do not change, they bust. 

I get why QBs in the NFL with all the size and talent in the world bust.  Many have had it fairly easy--relying on their "god given" skills and size to elevate them above the competition their entire lives.  In some ways, they may never have been genuinely challenged.  But a 5'10" QB getting a scholarship at a FCS school is impressive.  To be named the starter as a freshman is a near miracle.  But for that team to be Alabama?  Shut up.

I am not endorsing either candidate, but if you only see Young's size as a detriment, it really is. Yes, he can be injured or hurt, but a solid OL and the new NFL rules that protect the QB are factors.  Stroud can get injured as well.  But it is also a measure of the man inside, and that man "can plan my castle onslaught any day."

 

 

 

[Castavar]

You don't pass on Bryce Young because you are scared he is going to get injured. Injuries are so fluky. It can happen to anyone at anytime no matter how big, small, tall, short you are. Burrow tore his ACL IN THE POCKET. Herbert got his ribs fractured. Brady tore his ACL in practice. Murray tore his ACL on a non contact play. Hell, our very own Cam Newton got an injury that ruined his career because Kelvin Benjamin is a fat lazy fug that didn't bother to make a tackle on a int and Cam had to run down his defender and fugged his shoulder up forever. Point is, NFL is fuggin rough, EVERYBODY will get hurt at some point.

All I'm saying is, who's to say we go the safe route and draft CJ Stroud just because he's "bigger and taller" and he goes out week one and gets a season ending injury (god forbid)? You can't predict injuries. Just because you might be getting the bigger and taller QB does NOT mean he won't get injured just as much.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Castavar

[rightturn]

44 minutes ago, Castavar said:

You don't pass on Bryce Young because you are scared he is going to get injured. Injuries are so fluky. It can happen to anyone at anytime no matter how big, small, tall, short you are. Burrow tore his ACL IN THE POCKET. Herbert got his ribs fractured. Brady tore his ACL in practice. Murray tore his ACL on a non contact play. Hell, our very own Cam Newton got an injury that ruined his career because Kelvin Benjamin is a fat lazy fug that didn't bother to make a tackle on a int and Cam had to run down his defender and fugged his shoulder up forever. Point is, NFL is fuggin rough, EVERYBODY will get hurt at some point.

All I'm saying is, who's to say we go the safe route and draft CJ Stroud just because he's "bigger and taller" and he goes out week one and gets a season ending injury (god forbid)? You can't predict injuries. Just because you might be getting the bigger and taller QB does NOT mean he won't get injured just as much.

On the flip side he they go young and vita vea crushes him into the ground and he is done for the year people lose jobs.  They know this.  

[Ivory Panther]

10 hours ago, Puresteel55 said:

What has led you to believe Fitt and Thomas are high on BY?

 

[Ivory Panther]

4 hours ago, SOJA said:

I think to further solidify my point is to consider is Kylar Murray and how thus far his career has been hamstrung by injuries

 

Look at this photo. Kyler's listed weight is 207, Bryce looks like he's probably 20 lbs under him. If Kyler can't stay on the field why would Bryce be able to outside of amazing luck

Show me the link between size & kyler injuries.

btw the big one was ACL while running by himself…

[Tr3ach]

4 hours ago, SOJA said:

I think to further solidify my point is to consider is Kylar Murray and how thus far his career has been hamstrung by injuries

 

Look at this photo. Kyler's listed weight is 207, Bryce looks like he's probably 20 lbs under him. If Kyler can't stay on the field why would Bryce be able to outside of amazing luck

Correlation doesnt equal causation. 

[Puresteel55]

9 hours ago, Tr3ach said:

I think its weird people who are set on stroud say you can coach stroud to do what young does but you cant coach young to be bigger.  The second part is definitely true, but the first part definitely isnt nesscesarily.   You cant nesscesarily coach lightning quick processing and playmaking when a play breaks down.  A lot of that is natural talent in the same way height is.

When a play breaks down and Young tries to “make a play” is when he gets blindsided like Romanowski did to Collins and Watt did to Cam…and they were BIG men comparatively. 
Brees was a pocket passer and had a long career. Cam was a “playmaker” and had a relatively short career. BIG “playmaker” - short career. SMALL “pocket passer” -long career.

Young is a SMALL “playmaker” = Recipe for disaster and very short career.

Stroud is a BIG pocket passer = potentially very long career.

Agreed that Stroud needs to be a LITTLE more of a “playmaker” and use his legs a bit more and that can be taught.

physical limitations that can not be overcome will make it very difficult for Young to be effective from the pocket.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Puresteel55

[Pazhoosier89]

1 hour ago, Castavar said:

You don't pass on Bryce Young because you are scared he is going to get injured. Injuries are so fluky. It can happen to anyone at anytime no matter how big, small, tall, short you are. Burrow tore his ACL IN THE POCKET. Herbert got his ribs fractured. Brady tore his ACL in practice. Murray tore his ACL on a non contact play. Hell, our very own Cam Newton got an injury that ruined his career because Kelvin Benjamin is a fat lazy fug that didn't bother to make a tackle on a int and Cam had to run down his defender and fugged his shoulder up forever. Point is, NFL is fuggin rough, EVERYBODY will get hurt at some point.

All I'm saying is, who's to say we go the safe route and draft CJ Stroud just because he's "bigger and taller" and he goes out week one and gets a season ending injury (god forbid)? You can't predict injuries. Just because you might be getting the bigger and taller QB does NOT mean he won't get injured just as much.

Spot on. Cam Newton is exhibit A for this. He was built like a DE and injuries shortened his career. Part of that was his playing style but you are not expecting Young to run a ton either.

[Growl]

I’m not really scared of injuries with Young. I’m scared that a lot of the things we see as GOOD when watching him play are being interpreted as a really weird positive slant and that he’ll get in camp and we’ll be like “how did we get sucked into this” 

 

what if his “crazy off platform throws” aren’t “crazy off platform throws,” 

what if it’s it’s just bad footwork

go watch a lowlight video of him and all of that stuff is still there, except it’s directly leading to the obvious consequence of an erratic pass.

i really like Young but I am kind of leaning Stroud atm 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Growl

[stan786]

18 minutes ago, Growl said:

I’m not really scared of injuries with Young. I’m scared that a lot of the things we see as GOOD when watching him play are being interpreted as a really weird positive slant and that he’ll get in camp and we’ll be like “how did we get sucked into this” 

 

what if his “crazy off platform throws” aren’t “crazy off platform throws,” 

what if it’s it’s just bad footwork

go watch a lowlight video of him and all of that stuff is still there, except it’s directly leading to the obvious consequence of an erratic pass.

i really like Young but I am kind of leaning Stroud atm 

I'm most worried about if he can thread the same windows in the pros as he can in college when he makes some of these magic throws after extending the play. Velocity on his ball while fine isnt top tier, what happens when everyone is a bit faster and the windows are tighter can he do it.

I tend to think yes, but its a big enough worry for me i'm fine playing it safe with Stroud if our staff desires.

[Bear Hands]

People keep saying Stroud had better weapons--in 2022, yes but 2021 Young had Metchie & Jameson Williams.  Two potential studs who just haven't been healthy in the NFL yet. Godspeed to Metchie coming back from cancer treatment this year.  

And the interesting thing is that his stats still held true when the studs left.  He managed very identical numbers 2021 to 2022, Y/A (8.9 to 8.8) and AY/Y (10.0 to 9.9).  Rating 167.5 to 163.2.  66.9% to 64.5% completion rates.  TDs and yards were down but it was off of 3 less games so it's really close.  

He also took plenty of big hits in the pocket and got right up.  His only injury in college was due to a weird angle he got tackled at that strained his shoulder. 

Stroud had more variance year to year which is indicative of the WRs on the team having a greater effect on him, but I mean, it was the best WR room in CFB so of course they'll have an effect. However after Wilson & Olave left, S-N was out all season, it was just MH Jr. & Egbuka.   Yeah, still better supporting cast, but 2021 was supremely better.  His completion rates were still higher than Bryce and what's even more impressive is that his avg y/a were around an entire yard higher than Young.  CJ is damn accurate.  

The short: They're both damn good

[TheSpecialJuan]