This is why Bryce Young undoubtedly is QB1

[OldhamA]

1 hour ago, Rubi said:

Stroud put on a show after the draft. The trade occurred 5 minutes after the draft. It must be Stroud. I hope it is. Elite thrower 

I think part of the argument for Stroud, and the Goff comparison, is that you can design an offence around him i.e. you know he can hit every throw at every level and with elite accuracy.

Like Goff, if it turns out he struggles with processing you can simplify the reads for him, still knowing the ball is going to get where it's meant to go on time (this is why Ben Johnson is so highly sought after). 

He's a much safer pick than Young, imo. You have a very floor with him, even if he doesn't turn into your franchise QB. 

[gmonjimbo]

11 minutes ago, stan786 said:

I do agree with cant be corrected, but I guess we've seen QBs that cant handle pressure eaten up in the NFL to a pretty high degree, Goff had one of the best QB coaches in the league and couldnt handle it. Its not like some of the issues Stroud could potentially have are easy to fix either.

We both are going to be happy about drafting either of them, I guess I feel lately people just put total blinders up to legit hard to fix issues Stroud could potentially have but have a free for all going at something no one knows how big of an issue it really is.

But I guess its more of one of those, people like the fear of the known more than the unknown.

Enjoyed reading your post. My main concern about Stroud is how to separate his individual brilliance as a prospect versus the team around him.

Looking at 2022 actual , 2023, and 2024 mock drafts 5 WRs (Ebuka, Harrison Jr, Jaxon Smith, Wilson, and Olave) and 3 OL (Bookend Tackles and Guard) from OSU drafted or projected to go in first round 

I'm fine with Young, Stroud, and even Richardson. However, why I prefer Young over the two is I saw how he performed without Metchie and Jameson Williams this year and still had a great season.

Nick Saban mentioning yesterday that he was like another coach on their roster in terms of preparation tells me he has the makings of a field general like what Kuechly was for the defense. I don't think that is something easily taught and could take Stroud or Richardson 3-5 years to maybe even reach where Bryce is now in commanding an offense. 

[stan786]

3 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

I think part of the argument for Stroud, and the Goff comparison, is that you can design an offence around him i.e. you know he can hit every throw at every level and with elite accuracy.

Like Goff, if it turns out he struggles with processing you can simplify the reads for him, still knowing the ball is going to get where it's meant to go on time (this is why Ben Johnson is so highly sought after). 

He's a much safer pick than Young, imo. You have a very floor with him, even if he doesn't turn into your franchise QB. 

As I argue Bryce, I want to say I agree completely with this take. Even at his worst I feel like Stroud is someone you can build around in a Rookie contract and simplify things enough to be the Goff that helped get the Rams to the Super Bowl. Issues becomes more the second contract where if we get to that point them i'm happy to deal with it then.
 

I think Stroud is the floor play for us for sure, I just think Bryce could easily be the home run. Not that Stroud cant, just think he's got a few more hurdles on that front with where his game is at currently.

These are the types of discussions on them I prefer because I do think Bryce has negatives that arent his size like arm strength.

[thefuzz]

8 minutes ago, stan786 said:

As I argue Bryce, I want to say I agree completely with this take. Even at his worst I feel like Stroud is someone you can build around in a Rookie contract and simplify things enough to be the Goff that helped get the Rams to the Super Bowl. Issues becomes more the second contract where if we get to that point them i'm happy to deal with it then.
 

I think Stroud is the floor play for us for sure, I just think Bryce could easily be the home run. Not that Stroud cant, just think he's got a few more hurdles on that front with where his game is at currently.

These are the types of discussions on them I prefer because I do think Bryce has negatives that arent his size like arm strength.

This, IMO.

With Stroud on a 5 year deal, you can build the defense, and get enough skill position players around him to make a simpl"er" offense....Reich and crew can design said offense, I've never, ever had faith in our offense staffs through the years....I do now.

With Caldwell, Reich, McCown, and Brown....they can build the offense, and Stroud can make every throw...he's not going to need to get to his 3rd read his rookie year....not what will be called for.

Think what the Steelers die with Roethlisberger.....babied him along until the training wheels could come off....and they won...a LOT.

Take the Roethlisberger/Rivers, not the Kyler, and build the team.

[Jaxel]

1 minute ago, thefuzz said:

This, IMO.

With Stroud on a 5 year deal, you can build the defense, and get enough skill position players around him to make a simpl"er" offense....Reich and crew can design said offense, I've never, ever had faith in our offense staffs through the years....I do now.

With Caldwell, Reich, McCown, and Brown....they can build the offense, and Stroud can make every throw...he's not going to need to get to his 3rd read his rookie year....not what will be called for.

Think what the Steelers die with Roethlisberger.....babied him along until the training wheels could come off....and they won...a LOT.

Take the Roethlisberger/Rivers, not the Kyler, and build the team.

We've been building the team for 10byeats, get a qb that can win. It's time.

[thefuzz]

Just now, Jaxel said:

We've been building the team for 10byeats, get a qb that can win. It's time.

No, we haven't.

[stan786]

8 minutes ago, thefuzz said:

This, IMO.

With Stroud on a 5 year deal, you can build the defense, and get enough skill position players around him to make a simpl"er" offense....Reich and crew can design said offense, I've never, ever had faith in our offense staffs through the years....I do now.

With Caldwell, Reich, McCown, and Brown....they can build the offense, and Stroud can make every throw...he's not going to need to get to his 3rd read his rookie year....not what will be called for.

Think what the Steelers die with Roethlisberger.....babied him along until the training wheels could come off....and they won...a LOT.

Take the Roethlisberger/Rivers, not the Kyler, and build the team.

The downside of this is when you eventually commit the massive contract to him and he cant win when the supporting staff around him drops. Ideally if that were to happen we'd find someone to sell us our Stafford like the Rams situation lol.

My opinion is if Bryce is what I think he probably is he's going to be able to elevate the team in any build which is something that I think is really hard to find in a QB and separates the good for the greats. Which is where my internal argument comes from Stroud is safe with potential to be Special and I think Bryce is Special with the potential to completely crash and burn.

I wouldnt blame us for making either decision.

Edited March 24, 2023 by stan786

[thefuzz]

3 minutes ago, stan786 said:

The downside of this is when you eventually commit the massive contract to him and he cant win when the supporting staff around him drops. Ideally if that were to happen we'd find someone to sell us our Stafford like the Rams situation lol.

My opinion is if Bryce is what I think he probably is he's going to be able to elevate the team in any build which is something that I think is really hard to find in a QB and separates the good for the greats. Which is where my internal argument comes from Stroud is safe with potential to be Special and I think Bryce is Special with the potential to completely crash and burn.

I wouldnt blame us for making either decision.

2nd contract isn't an issue for minimum 4 years, a window to win in the NFL is about that long as well....take the guy who has the best ability to stay healthy, make the throws and go win games.

If you have to worry about a 2nd contract, you are blessed.

[stan786]

Just now, thefuzz said:

2nd contract isn't an issue for minimum 4 years, a window to win in the NFL is about that long as well....take the guy who has the best ability to stay healthy, make the throws and go win games.

If you have to worry about a 2nd contract, you are blessed.

Yeah my whole stance in here in this thread there is nothing other than gut feels that would tell me Stroud is more likely to stay healthy than Young, both have been dinged up but not seriously injured, both have slight frames, I havent seen any data that says a 215 lb QB is less likely to get hurt than a 195 lb QB.

I would argue that Stroud can make all the throws better than Bryce but Bryce has the ability to put the team on his back to go win games more often on film than Stroud.

I think if you are drafting a guy 1 overall your goal should be the guy that can be your guy for 10+ years and I think they both can be that. But the second contract and what can they do when the talent around them drops a bit is definitely have a factor in that. If i'm the team I have concerns that Stroud cant take that next step I sure as heck would go Young, but I'm not sure I have those concerns.

If a team is just crossing their fingers the guy they take can make it to his second contract we are in a world of trouble.

[Wundrbread33]

11 hours ago, jayboogieman said:

Yeah, I apologize for that. Feel free to return the favor.

Trying to get people to even concede the possibility that Young might be successful in the NFL despite his size got to me. A lot of the Stroud fans totally overlook and disregard the OSU QB history and stats claiming Stroud is different while history shows he's not. He's pretty much just been another cog in the QB wheel that is the OSU system. That said, Stroud could end up being the guy that breaks that streak.

Anyway, I'll stick to posting meme poo when it comes to the Stroud/Young debate in the future.

It’s tough to do, but those who speak in absolutes, or great certainty like they KNOW what will happen with players…well it’s best to just ignore them or let that poo roll off your back. 
 

It’s natural for anyone to think they know more than they do. 
 

I think it’s rational to be concerned with his size…but anyone saying he definitely won’t make it (or Stroud definitely won’t because OSU, etc)…that’s just horseshit. Those takes suck. No one knows jack.

 

That poo pisses me off too so I get it, but I have to remind myself to ignore these people, at least until they get off their high horse.

 

[thefuzz]

2 minutes ago, stan786 said:

Yeah my whole stance in here in this thread there is nothing other than gut feels that would tell me Stroud is more likely to stay healthy than Young, both have been dinged up but not seriously injured, both have slight frames, I havent seen any data that says a 215 lb QB is less likely to get hurt than a 195 lb QB.

I would argue that Stroud can make all the throws better than Bryce but Bryce has the ability to put the team on his back to go win games more often on film than Stroud.

I think if you are drafting a guy 1 overall your goal should be the guy that can be your guy for 10+ years and I think they both can be that. But the second contract and what can they do when the talent around them drops a bit is definitely have a factor in that. If i'm the team I have concerns that Stroud cant take that next step I sure as heck would go Young, but I'm not sure I have those concerns.

If a team is just crossing their fingers the guy they take can make it to his second contract we are in a world of trouble.

I look at them a little differently than most.

IMO, you are buying a run with the trading of the assets, not a 10 year guy...there are SO few of those, think about how many 10 year starters there have been that stuck with a team for that long in the recent decades.  Not too many, and those are HOF guys who you don't care about giving said 2nd contract.

Now, that leads me to the next piece, to make said run, you need an above average/good QB that stays healthy for the full run.

As to the health thing, it's not gut that's telling me he won't make it, it's history.  There has never been a long term starter in the NFL at this guys size and playing weight....EVER.  Think about being a Skins fan during the RG3 years, or a Dolphins fan right now...scared to death every time a rusher sneaks by, or he your RB misses a blitz pickup?

You would be trying to get a HOF level QB, while also being the maverick who does so with a 179lb QB....

 

[rightturn]

1 hour ago, stan786 said:

But why? What actually shows that to be true other than assumptions? Data tends to show lighter players get hurt less, Bryce's injury history isnt massive. What actually tells us that he's going to get hurt more other than he doesnt hit some magical number on the scale, that no one has ever shown actually means injuries greatly uptick.

Can you link that data please?  Because I seriously doubt it applies to qbs.  And Bryce Young is going to be the smallest qb ever to start in the modern era.  And that is for a reason.

[stan786]

1 minute ago, thefuzz said:

I look at them a little differently than most.

IMO, you are buying a run with the trading of the assets, not a 10 year guy...there are SO few of those, think about how many 10 year starters there have been that stuck with a team for that long in the recent decades.  Not too many, and those are HOF guys who you don't care about giving said 2nd contract.

Now, that leads me to the next piece, to make said run, you need an above average/good QB that stays healthy for the full run.

As to the health thing, it's not gut that's telling me he won't make it, it's history.  There has never been a long term starter in the NFL at this guys size and playing weight....EVER.  Think about being a Skins fan during the RG3 years, or a Dolphins fan right now...scared to death every time a rusher sneaks by, or he your RB misses a blitz pickup?

You would be trying to get a HOF level QB, while also being the maverick who does so with a 179lb QB....

 

I agree with your sentiment up top, but we disagree pretty heavily on the injuries I can say as a Panthers fan I was nervous everytime cam got hit after his shoulder injury. As a Ravens fan i'm sure you hold your breathe when Lamar takes a hit. As a Bills fan you question if Allen hadnt got hurt last year do you win it all. 49ers had QBs big, small, in the pocket, out of the pocket get hurt to tank their year. Staffords arm is dead with no clear reason why. Tua gets his concussions because he lets his head ragdoll, Culter says he had 15 concussions in his career. RG3 tears his knee up on an unfortunate run, Wentz whos a big guy also tore his knee up on an unfortunate run.

All size QBs get hurt, there is zero correlation or evidence that smaller QBs or players get hurt at some increased level than big QBs. Its a total gut feel thing. Calling Bryce a 179 lb Maverick QB helps illustrate that bias there. I get it you like Stroud more and I dont blame you but I think its just disingenuous to push a narrative his size is immediately going to get him hurt more when no one knows because there is nothing to say that should necessarily be the case other than "Logically I feel that should be the case".

[stan786]

8 minutes ago, rightturn said:

Can you link that data please?  Because I seriously doubt it applies to qbs.  And Bryce Young is going to be the smallest qb ever to start in the modern era.  And that is for a reason.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/weight-and-injuries

I've been trying to find other studies but this is the most complete one I can find. Now I would say if you really think about why this would be the case is it because their size helps them? I doubt it, is it because they get put in harms way less? maybe.

I would personally argue there is no good data pointing a clear direction either way, I am more arguing people making a gigantic assumption he's automatically getting hurt more are just doing it because they feel that way when nothings really shown it.

Edited March 24, 2023 by stan786