NFL: Wilson vs Carroll

[NorthTryon]

When Richard Sherman said that Carroll and coaching staff almost kept Wilson in a bubble, who would've thought he was this fragile? 

[NanuqoftheNorth]

This story doesn't surprise me in the least.  Especially considering how swollen Russell Wilson's head had become during his last few seasons in Seattle.  Russell wanted to be included in all the important decisions; schemes, coaching and player personnel.  His ego seemingly had no limits.  Seattle simply wasn't big enough for both of them.  Either Russell Wilson or the Seahawks had to go.  I feel comfortable with the city's decision.

 

[coffee]

5 minutes ago, Khaki Lackey said:

Payton and Wilson being a disaster in Denver would be a dream come true, but when it comes to sports, the more I dislike a team, the better they get. So wager on multiple Super Bowls.

Also, anyone who actually paid their own hard earned cash for any merchandise that read "Let Russ Cook!" should be sterilized.

 

[NanuqoftheNorth]

3 minutes ago, NorthTryon said:

When Richard Sherman said that Carroll and coaching staff almost kept Wilson in a bubble, who would've thought he was this fragile? 

A cautionary tale for parents who coddle their children.  They'll eventually turn on you.

[top dawg]

20 minutes ago, BIGH2001 said:

I’ve never seen a guy get more coincidental bad press than russell.

I gotta give you that.

My thing is that I don't think he's a bad person. I think that he has lost sight of reality a little bit, and that he's out of line with his own importance. I fault Carrol and Schneider for that though. They were his enablers. They allowed Russell to go places that he never should have been. Obviously when they wanted to reel him in, it was too late. He's their creation in several respects. 

Now let's see if Payton can't bring Wilson down to earth and help him to return to his franchise QB form. Many seem to be hoping that Wilson fails; I just want to see players do their best (unless their playing the Panthers). 

I think Aaron Rodgers is perhaps the biggest jerk of them all, but I would love to see him lead another team to the big dance if he's able to do it.

Edited February 24, 2023 by top dawg

[Mr. Scot]

15 minutes ago, coffee said:

They say you can't hear pictures

[NorthTryon]

23 minutes ago, NanuqoftheNorth said:

A cautionary tale for parents who coddle their children.  They'll eventually turn on you.

Sure will. I've seen it play out so many times. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, NorthTryon said:

Sure will. I've seen it play out so many times. 

It definitely doesn't make sense from a coaching standpoint.

I'd add that it's gotta be pretty tough to coach somebody whose core belief is that nothing negative said about them has any validity.

How do you coach a guy who believes they're already perfect?

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mr. Scot

[bythenbrs]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've seen a lot of people put that label on Wilson.

I get it, but I think the reality might be that he's just kinda weird

A lot of his persona can be traced to a positive thinking guru named Trevor Moawad. Wilson has described Moawad as his "best friend" and credited him for a lot of his success.

(for the record, Moawad passed away last year from a brain tumor; people who know Wilson say that had a huge effect on him)

I've read a little about Moawad and a lot of his ideas boil down to the notion that you can prevent anything negative from affecting you by basically just denying it or not acknowledging it. That kind of thinking sure does sound a lot like Wilson.

(pretty sure Scientology has some similar tenets, for what it's worth)

Before he died, Moawad had gained a number of famous clients including other NFL players and NFL adjacent guys like Ryan Leaf. As far as I know though, Wilson was his most famous acolyte.

Is that Russ in the lower right?

 

[Mr. Scot]

For anyone interested, below are several excerpts from The Athletic article about Wilson's first year in Denver.

They paint quite a picture

________________________________________

The Athletic spoke to more than 15 Broncos players, coaches and staffers about the 2022 season. Some were granted anonymity to speak freely about sensitive topics. Many of those interviewed described a team without direction: a first-time head coach who was too accommodating, an inexperienced coaching staff around him and a star quarterback who failed to live up to expectations after getting what he wanted.

...

Within days of Wilson’s call to Seahawks ownership, top team officials met and decided to pursue a trade of the most successful quarterback in franchise history. On March 8, Seahawks leadership publicly backed Carroll and Schneider by sending Wilson to the Broncos for two first-round picks, two second-rounders, one fifth-rounder and three players.

Wilson, a nine-time Pro Bowler, waived his no-trade clause, then signed a $245 million contract extension before the season. He told new Broncos teammates he approved Denver as his destination because he believed the team could win championships. Wilson told reporters in Denver he hoped to win “three or four more Super Bowls.”

“That’s the plan,” Wilson said when the trade was announced in March. “That’s why I came here.”

...

Wilson spoke with Paton about the support staff he intended to employ, apart from official team employees, including Jake Heaps, his personal quarterback coach, as well as a nutritionist and a physical therapist. Wilson explained why it was important to have his staff nearby, including inside Denver’s facility, an area reserved for team personnel. Paton discussed the arrangement with Hackett and signed off on it.

The setup was unprecedented for both players and coaches.

“No one else I have been around has ever been able to have those people in there – which, looking back on it, not a good idea,” a member of the 2022 Broncos coaching staff said.

...

The Broncos gave Wilson an office at the team facility, a rare perk (Wilson did not have an office in Seattle and Heaps had only limited access to the Seahawks’ facility). Several Broncos veterans said they didn’t mind Wilson having his own office, especially because the quarterback spent so much time at the facility.

“He’s got a whiteboard, the sides of the wall, and it’s just littered with (motivational) quotes and new play concepts,” receiver Kendall Hinton said. “It was crazy to see his mind thrown out on the (wall).”

Running back Melvin Gordon said the TV in Wilson’s office was always tuned to NFL Network. “It was just strictly football,” Gordon said. “Anybody could go to his office, and he was like, ‘Hey, if you want to learn extra plays, you want to go over this, you want to go over that?'”

...

But from the outside, the existence of the office worked against Wilson when his on-field play failed to measure up. And the location of the office — on the facility’s second floor, where Broncos coaches and executives also worked — created an unusual team dynamic.

“The players were always on the first floor; they never really came up to the second floor,” one coach said. “If you came up to the second floor as a player, it honestly wasn’t a good thing because you were probably getting released.”

One offensive player said Wilson told teammates he had an “open-door policy” with his office, which to another coach seemed problematic. “So, are you a coach or are you a player?” the coach asked. “Your open door should be you sitting at your locker.”

...

Hackett was so pumped to land Wilson he had to censor himself at the team’s introductory press conference after the March trade.

“Russell Wilson,” Hackett said. “Holy sh … ”

Hackett stressed that the best teams were player-led, an idea Wilson echoed to veteran NFL reporter Peter King at training camp.

“This has to be a player-ran kind of team,” Wilson told King. “Coach Hackett gives us the keys to do that.” After his visit, King wrote about Wilson’s relationship with Hackett compared to his relationship with Carroll. King quoted one source close to Wilson, saying: “(Hackett) and Russell are not coach-player. They’re partners.”

...

In Seattle, Wilson wanted more input and an offense suited to his wishes. In Denver, he was handed both.

Hackett signed off on plays presented to him by Wilson for inclusion in the game plan. One offensive coach said the Broncos’ no-huddle package was the one Wilson brought from Seattle, including the quick-tempo “code words” the quarterback used in the two-minute offense. Some felt that Hackett accommodated Wilson to a fault, which hurt the continuity of the offense.

"He had too much influence,” one coach said. “And it was mainly based on what Hackett allowed him to influence.”

...

Tuesdays are typically players’ only off days during game weeks, but Wilson asked the offense to meet with him at the team facility for “state of the union” meetings, something he also did in Seattle. Broncos guard Dalton Risner said Wilson had the offense “watch film on the next opponent and kind of come to an agreement on what they’re running … and what we can do to beat them.”

While some players grumbled about the meetings, several said they were helpful and well-attended. Risner said the meetings showed the “type of leader Russell is and what he’s willing to do for his team.”

Early in the season, without much Denver film to go on, Wilson occasionally showed clips from his time with the Seahawks. “It was kind of like he was going down memory lane with stuff he’d done in Seattle,” said one offensive player. “It was very strange some weeks.”

...

Heaps, Wilson’s personal quarterback coach, participated in the Tuesday meetings. Receiver Jerry Jeudy said Heaps “would do the slides and voice his opinion from time to time.”

...

“He wasn’t a distraction, I don’t think,” an offensive player said of Heaps, “but it was weird that he was in the middle.”

One coach reviewed some of the scouting reports Wilson and Heaps handed out on Tuesdays. The reports were thorough, the coach said, but there were instances when he didn’t agree with their evaluations. Another coach said Heaps’ presence during the season created “a conflict of influence.” Who did Wilson listen to? Heaps? Hackett? Quarterbacks coach Klint Kubiak?

“Too many cooks,” the coach said.

...

After the Houston game, Hackett took responsibility for the problems. “I’d be booing myself,” he said. “I was getting very frustrated.”

Hackett also indicated he could do a better job getting plays to Wilson quicker.

“It’s all about Russ,” Hackett said at the time. “We want to be sure that he’s comfortable, he’s feeling good, and I’m getting a play as fast as I can to him. We want to do what is right for him.”

But several team sources said Hackett typically relayed the play calls to Wilson with 20-25 seconds remaining on the 40-second play clock, and that this was the case against Houston, leaving more than enough time. Those sources said Wilson sometimes struggled to repeat the calls efficiently or offered too much instruction to teammates in the huddle.

Other sources put the issue on the coaches, saying the staff asked Wilson to over-communicate to make sure everyone was aligned.

...

“Mostly in the beginning, (Wilson) would give us a motivational speech to get us going before that play,” Jeudy said. “I don’t think he would say anything extra or anything unnecessary. He would give us the call and some motivational words and a little something extra like, ‘Get this block,’ but I don’t think it was nothing long-winded.”

“He would always say, ‘Keep believing,'” Hinton said. “‘Believe!'”

...

Some believed Hackett and his staff struggled to sift through ideas to put together a clear, workable plan. Others believed Wilson shouldered responsibility. Just about everyone who spoke to The Athletic painted an atmosphere of confusion and uncertainty.

Gordon, who was waived by the Broncos before signing with the Chiefs’ practice squad in late November, said Denver’s offense was a “mixture” of what Wilson ran in Seattle and what Hackett ran in Green Bay.

“It was just …,” Gordon said, pausing, “it was a bit much.”

...

One coach said Wilson added cadences in games that the offensive line hadn’t practiced much during the week, leading to communication issues. The Broncos had the second-most false starts in the NFL, and the coach said leaders on the line eventually pushed back on the changes.

“When Russell would be like, ‘Hey, we are going to do this,’ they would be like, ‘Hell no,'” the coach said.

Risner, who started 15 games in 2022, confirmed the uncertainty without assigning blame. “There were confusing times during this season where you may wonder why a decision was made and where that decision came from,” he said.

...

The frustration spilled over during games. Against the Colts in Week 5, receiver K.J. Hamler slammed his helmet to the turf after Wilson failed to see him at the goal line on the final play of a 12-9 overtime loss. When asked about the play after the game, Hamler said he could have “walked in” for a touchdown. During a Week 12 defeat at Carolina, cameras caught defensive lineman Mike Purcell yelling at Wilson on the sideline.

...

The Broncos then lost to the Rams 51-14, their most lopsided defeat since 2010, in a game remembered for backup quarterback Brett Rypien confronting Denver’s offensive line when the group did not help Wilson up after a sack. Wilson finished the game with a season-high three interceptions and a season-low 54.2 passer rating.

The following Monday, the Broncos fired Hackett.

According to team sources, Broncos leadership initiated a conversation with Wilson to talk about changes needed to salvage the end of a lost season. Team leadership brought up Wilson’s office and support staff, and the quarterback agreed to remove his staff from the building and no longer use his office for the final two weeks of the season.

“I didn’t feel any type of change other than he had been in the locker room a lot,” Jeudy said. “He was in there a lot more now that he wasn’t in the office.”

...

Wilson hired a new publicist as his image suffered through the difficult season. The Broncos headed into this offseason without a head coach or the draft haul they shipped to Seattle.

After a prolonged search that included two flirtations with Michigan’s Jim Harbaugh, an initial interview with Payton that seemed to lead nowhere and an awkward back-and-forth with 49ers defensive coordinator DeMeco Ryans, the Broncos circled back to Payton and hired the coach Wilson urged Seattle to install not quite one calendar year earlier.

...

A veteran coach with a Super Bowl ring and a proven offensive pedigree, Payton dined and posed for pictures with Wilson and Joe Montana during Super Bowl week. But Payton also made it clear there would be limits when it came to his quarterback.

In his first appearance as Denver’s head coach, Payton told reporters that Heaps and other Wilson staffers would no longer be working from inside the facility.

“We’re not going to do that here,” he said.

[NorthTryon]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

It definitely doesn't make sense from a coaching standpoint.

I'd add that it's gotta be pretty tough to coach somebody whose core belief is that nothing negative said about them has any validity.

How do you coach a guy who believes they're already perfect?

Exactly, I can only imagine how insufferable he must've been after they started winning and he got tied to his guru. I remember all the banter between Cam and TD that used to go on during camp. Sherman said they would be reprimanded for talking to Russ. And this is why I get angry thinking about how the NFL media painted Cam as this selfish, me first, terrible teammate with Russ out there literally alienating a generational defense from its coach! Then at the end of all that support they provided, he turned on them. I look forward to reading about the first year in Denver.

[Mr. Scot]

Related...

I didn't include this in the excerpts, but the gist of the story is that when Nathaniel Hackett was in Green Bay Aaron Rodgers could be kind of an ass (shocking, I know).

The story describes how in many offensive meetings, Matt LaFleur would try to introduce some new offensive concept or idea and if Rodgers didn't like it he'd shoot it down, leading to a lot of conflict, arguing and complications.

Hackett didn't want to deal with that kind of bullsh-t in Denver. Unfortunately, his solution was to basically roll over and say "yes sir" to whatever Wilson wanted.

You see how that worked out

[ladypanther]

Wilson denies the story but there is this observation:

 

Hours before his first regular-season game with the Denver Broncos last September, Russell Wilson made an unfamiliar walk down the visitor’s tunnel at Seattle’s Lumen Field.

He immediately saw familiar faces. In the end zone, Wilson hugged three members of the Seahawks’ strength-and-conditioning staff. Near midfield, he removed his headphones and put his arm around Carl Smith, his longtime position coach in Seattle. He embraced Sean Mannion, a quarterback on the practice squad, and Derin Lazuta, an assistant equipment manager.

In the pregame calm before his first start against his former team, Wilson shared moments with players, coaches and staff from his decorated 10-year Seahawks career. But Wilson and Pete Carroll — the quarterback and coach who won the only Super Bowl in franchise history, who turned the Seahawks into a decade-long winner — did not speak to each other on the field before the game. Their postgame embrace after a 17-16 Seahawks win was quick and awkward.

https://theathletic.com/4238804/2023/02/24/russell-wilson-denver-broncos-influence-offense/

[Mr. Scot]

6 minutes ago, ladypanther said:

Wilson denies the story but there is this observation:

Well of course he denies it.

It's negative