Quarterbacks win championships

[Jay Roosevelt]

35 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

Meanwhile, the hated Sam Darnold was 4-2 as a starter this year because it’s a team sport. 
 

I’d love a Mahomes on the team, but there’s many ways to make a football omelet. 
 

Keep adding talent. Make the team better. And if a QB you love is there at 5-8, then you can trade up and not get bent over while doing so. 

Sam Darnold is never winning a Super Bowl as anything other than a backup. I can't believe anyone would compare him going 4-2 over a 6 game stretch to what we saw last night. That's the ultimate loser's mentality.

Many QBs have had win streaks and even winning seasons. It doesn't mean they'd ever win a Super Bowl even with the most talented roster. Every so often you get a Brad Johnson or a Trent Dilfer who wins on the back of an all-time elite defense, but those defenses are all but impossible to put together today and neither of those QBs could have ever won that game last night against either Mahomes or Hurts.

It's not 1995 anymore; the "punt isn't a bad play" era is over. Powerhouse teams today win with top-tier QBs leading explosive offenses who can score when they have to. A good defense certainly helps but everything else is built on the foundation of the franchise QB. You don't have one, you might as well forfeit every game because even if your half-ass retread/draft bust/castoff QB can manage to get into the playoffs with 8 or 9 wins you're not getting to a Super Bowl, ever.

And as long as that's the case, what's the point? If you're not either competing for a championship or building toward becoming a team that can then you're just going through the motions.

[Jay Roosevelt]

3 minutes ago, heel31ok said:

Lol...football isnt life 

Ray Lewis and crew won a championship

So I beg to Dilfer.

 

 

 

Ray Lewis won 2 Super Bowls in a 17 year career; Patrick Mahomes has already won 2 in 5 seasons as a starter.

How many Super Bowls do you think Ray Lewis would have won if he'd had Patrick Mahomes as his QB?

[Bear Hands]

12 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Sam Darnold is never winning a Super Bowl as anything other than a backup. I can't believe anyone would compare him going 4-2 over a 6 game stretch to what we saw last night. That's the ultimate loser's mentality.

Seems like many just don't want to remember Matt Moore/Clausen or Kyle Allen/Grier.  3rd time's a charm I guess? 

 

 

[heel31ok]

28 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Ray Lewis won 2 Super Bowls in a 17 year career; Patrick Mahomes has already won 2 in 5 seasons as a starter.

How many Super Bowls do you think Ray Lewis would have won if he'd had Patrick Mahomes as his QB?

He won 2...the OP would have that at zero...there are zero mahomes in this draft.Zero.

 

[LinvilleGorge]

13 hours ago, heel31ok said:

Lol...football isnt life 

Ray Lewis and crew won a championship

So I beg to Dilfer.

 

 

 

Different era of football. They've tweaked the rules a bunch since to benefit offense and all indications are that they'll continue to do that. So you can try to buck the trend and try to build a team built to win in the '80s and '90s or you can see where the NFL is trying to take the sport and build a team built to score.

[Jay Roosevelt]

13 minutes ago, heel31ok said:

He won 2...the OP would have that at zero...there are zero mahomes in this draft.Zero.

 

Nobody thought Mahomes was Mahomes at the time either. That's my point; you gotta take your shots until you get your guy.

[heel31ok]

5 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Nobody thought Mahomes was Mahomes at the time either. That's my point; you gotta take your shots until you get your guy.

Many thought he was ...hexwas the 10 pick...so at the very least we shouldn't throw away picks to move up in a fishing expedition

[LinvilleGorge]

13 minutes ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Nobody thought Mahomes was Mahomes at the time either. That's my point; you gotta take your shots until you get your guy.

This. All the best young QBs currently in the league all had warts. None were considered slam dunk prospects. Mahomes came from an offensive system that exaggerated stats. Allen couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Burrow was old and a one year wonder. Herbert came from a one read offense and didn't deliver in the clutch. Hurts looked like a guy who needed a position change while at Bama.

[Basbear]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

This. All the best young QBs currently in the league all had warts. None were considered slam dunk prospects. Mahomes came from an offensive system that exaggerated stats. Allen couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Burrow was old and a one year wonder. Herbert came from a one read offense and didn't deliver in the clutch. Hurts looked like a guy who needed a position change while at Bama.

Coaching is key.....i think carolina finally has coaches thats able to improve offense players...

[Bear Hands]

I cannot for the life of me believe there needs to be this much convincing within the fandom of a franchise that experienced Cam Newton first hand.  

I guess that's the Dareus/Dalton crowd?  Might as well hype the Bama/TCU combo this time around, Anderson/Duggan it is!

 

[Wundrbread33]

1 hour ago, Jay Roosevelt said:

Sam Darnold is never winning a Super Bowl as anything other than a backup. I can't believe anyone would compare him going 4-2 over a 6 game stretch to what we saw last night. That's the ultimate loser's mentality.

Many QBs have had win streaks and even winning seasons. It doesn't mean they'd ever win a Super Bowl even with the most talented roster. Every so often you get a Brad Johnson or a Trent Dilfer who wins on the back of an all-time elite defense, but those defenses are all but impossible to put together today and neither of those QBs could have ever won that game last night against either Mahomes or Hurts.

It's not 1995 anymore; the "punt isn't a bad play" era is over. Powerhouse teams today win with top-tier QBs leading explosive offenses who can score when they have to. A good defense certainly helps but everything else is built on the foundation of the franchise QB. You don't have one, you might as well forfeit every game because even if your half-ass retread/draft bust/castoff QB can manage to get into the playoffs with 8 or 9 wins you're not getting to a Super Bowl, ever.

And as long as that's the case, what's the point? If you're not either competing for a championship or building toward becoming a team that can then you're just going through the motions.

That’s not what I said. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Wundrbread33

[SCO96]

55 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I cannot for the life of me believe there needs to be this much convincing within the fandom of a franchise that experienced Cam Newton first hand.  

I guess that's the Dareus/Dalton crowd?  Might as well hype the Bama/TCU combo this time around, Anderson/Duggan it is!

 

It seems that some people are convinced that the only way we're going to win a chanpionship in the immediate future is to draft CJ Stroud or Bryce Young in the top 3 and give up a slew of draft picks to do so. Once again, nobody has a problem trying to acquire a franchise QB in the draft draft. The point of disagreement is where to draft them. A lot of us just don't see Young or Stroud as  "can't miss prospects". We also don't see the other QB's as automatic busts just becuse they won't be the first two QB's off the board.

I'll admit that Stroud impressed me against GA. He even got me to reevaluate my anti-Ohio State.  QB stance. If we picked him, I'll cheer him just as much as the rest of you. But, if he doesn't pan out, this franchise will likely be set back for the rest of the decade; and we won't have any high draft choices in 2024 or 2025  to correct the mistake or build depth in the other areas of need. We don't want to create a situation Payton has inherited in Denver. And, the lack of high draft choices lost via trades in LA has come back to bite the Rams bigtime. 

[Bear Hands]

16 minutes ago, SCO96 said:

It seems that some people are convinced that the only way we're going to win a chanpionship in the immediate future is to draft CJ Stroud or Bryce Young in the top 3 and give up a slew of draft picks to do so. Once again, nobody has a problem trying to acquire a franchise QB in the draft draft. The point of disagreement is where to draft them. A lot of us just don't see Young or Stroud as  "can't miss prospects". We also don't see the other QB's as automatic busts just becuse they won't be the first two QB's off the board.

I'll admit that Stroud impressed me against GA. He even got me to reevaluate my anti-Ohio State.  QB stance. If we picked him, I'll cheer him just as much as the rest of you. But, if he doesn't pan out, this franchise will likely be set back for the rest of the decade; and we won't have any high draft choices in 2024 or 2025  to correct the mistake or build depth in the other areas of need. We don't want to create a situation Payton has inherited in Denver. And, the lack of high draft choices lost via trades in LA has come back to bite the Rams bigtime. 

Well the Rams got a ring so, no. 

And it's what many people simply want. They for (1) like the prospect and (2) want a QB.  And it's what the staff may very well want.  Let's not try to complicate this. 

Everything you're telling me is that it's coming down to your view of the specific players and not the general scenario.  If you had a QB you thought was a potential top-5 in the league type, you're telling me you're just going to stay put and bank on next year?  It's an agree-to-disagree point with the specific player, but what we're saying is if you ID the guy, go get him or get lost.       

And I just don't buy this "set us back" stuff, just look at Philly and LAR.  They miffed with HUGE trades for their future in Goff and Wentz yet both have found a way to success within a short span of time.  It doesn't "mortgage the future" or "set us back" quite nearly as much as is let on.  So what if we don't keep #20 overall, 3rd-4th DT/CB in the 2024 draft.  I mean, that's really what we're talking about.  And there's also this built in assumption that the future pick is some certified hit, well that pick in itself is a risk just like every one in the draft.  

You have the FA, other draft picks, it's one or two picks and you're getting the QB you want in return. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Bear Hands

[SCO96]

2 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Well the Rams got a ring so, no. 

They didn't pin their hopes on a rookie QB

The Rams won their SB with a seasoned veteran QB who was throwing for 4,000 yards on an annual basis in Detroit. Stafford was being held back by a Lion franchise that has never appeared in Super Bowl despite being one of the oldest franchises in the NFL.

 

4 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

And it's what many people simply want. They for (1) like the prospect and (2) want a QB.  And it's what the staff may very well want.  Let's not try to complicate this. 

I'm  glad you acknowledged that the staff "may" want a certain prospect. But what if they don't? There are people on this board who will have an emotional meltdown if we don't move up to the top 3 and pick they QB that "they want". I like they new regime. If they decide to move up then I'll support them. If they don't move up, then I'll support them. 

9 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

And I just don't buy this "set us back" stuff, just look at Philly and LAR.  They miffed with HUGE trades for their future in Goff and Wentz yet both have found a way to success within a short span of time. 

Man, we can't compare our front office with Philadelphia. They went 5 NFC title games and a SB when the had Reid &McNabb in the 2000's. The Eagles are almost always in contention in the NFC.  Do you think we'd be concerned about moving up if the guys in the Philly front office was running our team? We are concerned about the Carolina front office screwing things up. I'm hoping Fitterer becomes the finest GM in the NFL. But, he still has to prove himself   

15 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

It doesn't "mortgage the future" or "set us back" quite nearly as much as is let on.  So what if we don't keep #20 overall, 3rd-4th DT/CB in the 2024 draft.  I mean, that's really what we're talking about.  And there's also this built in assumption that the future pick is some certified hit, well that pick in itself is a risk just like every one in the draft.  

If we stay put at #9 and don't make any trades we will have 3 picks in the top 63. We should walk away with 3 starters in this years draft if we play our cards right. Sometimes the best player at a postion doesn't come off until the late 1st or 2nd round because of drat runs on other postions. Other times drafts are so deep that there isn't a big dropoff between the top 5 players in a position group,

As for later picks being a risk the same thing applies to first round QB's. I think history proves that there is over a 50% but rate for round 1 quarterbacks. Every pick in the draft is really a crapshoot. 

19 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

You have the FA, other draft picks, it's one or two picks and you're getting the QB you want in return. 

You do know that we are already almost 10 million dollars over the cap, right? If we don't do some major restructuring and cut of couple of guys we won't lure be able sign any FA"s because we won't be able to afford them. We also could help our cap situation quite a bit if we could draft some good players in rounds 2-3 and have them on rookie deals for the next 4 seasons. 

If we trade for a  QB into the top 3, the other team is going to want #1 picks in 2024 and 2025. Probably a #2 this year and possibly another a #2 or #3 in 2024 or 2025..  I don't feel too secure in the thought of Carolina trying to build a championship roster with a 2023 rookie QB  and most of their picks in 2024 and 2025 coming in the 3rd round or later.