Quarterbacks win championships

[amcoolio]

16 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Actually, I have been accused of this when what I said was-- they may bring him back because there are many 2021 busts who, under a new coach and new system, prospered in 2022.  The reality of the Panther situation may very well necessitate bringing back a veteran. 

I said Darnold has all the physical tools.  His issues are cerebral. 

But there are some people who must make everything about the person making an observation or statement so they can attack the person and not the actual message. It is easy that way--happens in sandboxes every day. Considering  possibilities that any intelligent person would analyze if they were mature enough to table their bias and analyze multiple possibilities and perspectives is the basis for intelligent discourse.  If analyzing what the could do with Darnold and discussing the potential positives (based on what has happened around the league with QBs with new coaches and systems--Goff, Jones, Tua, etc for example) because we all know what he looked like in the Jets/Rhule systems--why would a smart person attack the person bringing up these very realistic points and potential outcomes? 

So yeah, I get your point--Darnold bad, not Darnold good. 

I love that people like to attack posters intelligence on here for having a different opinion. Totally not like anyone to be completely wrong on here before but ignore it and pretend like it never happened....

Everyone knows Darnold has all the physical tools. Darnold's mental deficiencies aren't fixable. He panics. He holds on to the ball a half second more than he needs to. He doesn't trust himself. There is no possible way you can tell me that Darnold could play in that game last night. He couldn't even play in week 18 in a meaningless game....he panicked all over himself to the tune of 5 completed passes...in a dome! 

Look, Sam is a nice guy. I get that you want to see him succeed. But even if he had a super staff of the Eagles and Chiefs offensive gurus combined, it is very unlikely he could be fixed. The Eagles and Chiefs dropped their dead weight quarterbacks before Mahomes and Hurts, so they see stuff like this too.

THE #1 TRAIT you need in a quarterback, beyond all else, is composure. 2nd is will to win. Darnold has neither. We don't need to subject ourselves to settle for subpar quarterbacking. Enough with the excuses for Sam, and enough with the putting down posters on here who want to be rid of Sam.

[CRA]

1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

Trivia question: Who was the last #1 draft pick QB to win a Super Bowl with their original draft team? (Name, SB year and draft year).

It's not the right answer I don't think because of the trade but Eli IMO should qualify.   He was the #1 overall pick and won it for the Giants. 

[CRA]

17 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

Teams win championships. 
 

It certainly helps if you draft a QB who ends up being the Michael Jordan of football though. 

32 teams.  In the last two decades......only 11 QBs have won the Super Bowl.  

[45catfan]

Just now, CRA said:

It's not the right answer I don't think because of the trade but Eli IMO should qualify.   He was the #1 overall pick and won it for the Giants. 

*It was a draft day trade for Eli, but it was his brother Peyton.  2006 SB, drafted #1 overall by the Colts and in 1998.  My point, if having the #1 pick for a QB hit more often than not, I wouldn't be opposed to moving all the way up.  Considering the ramifications of the move up and spotty prospects of it actually panning out, it's a hard pass for me.

[SCO96]

2 hours ago, Growl said:

it’s remarkable there’s still people trying to resist this

People really aren't resistant to the idea that you need strong QB play to win a championship. We're resistant to the idea that giving up a several of our #1, #2 and possibly #3 draft picks in the in the 2023-2025 drafts to move up to get Bryce Young and CJ Stroud (neither is a sure bet to excel in the NFL) in the draft. 

Contrary to popular opinion, our roster is not that strong. We have some nice pieces in place. But we are not a stacked team by any measure. 

Our defensive tackles combined for 2 sacks on the season. One player (Brian Burns) is responsible for 12.5 of our 35 team sacks, and a segment on this board actually wants to trade him. Our 2nd leading pass rusher was a LB (Luvu had 7 sacks) we acquired in free agency. One D-lineman had 5 sacks, another had 2.5. No one else had more 1. Several didn't have any.

Our Secondary had 10 INTs. Our Safeties didn't have any of them. A player who almost missed half the season was tied for 2nd on the team (2 INTS) with CJ Henderson who didn't miss a game. Our best corner had 3. The other 3 came from Luvu, Brown and Roy, the latter two are DT's.

Christian was the 2nd leading receiver in 2022, despite playing half the season with another team. Outside of DJ, no wideout eclipsed 30 catches this year. Our TE's are not passing threats. They combined for 3 TD's (all by Tremble) and would not start on any team in the NFL. 

Shaq and Luvu had over 100 tackles. No other LB eclipsed 50.

We could try to trade up and pick Stroud or Young, but we'd have to mortgage the future to do it. How do we fill the holes at DE, DT, OLB, S, WR, TE, and CB if we give away #1 ,#2 picks, #3 picks in 2023, 2024 and 2025?

We can sit still at #9, grab a QB, and find starters for half of those positions in this years draft with our #2 and # 3 draft choices alone. Or you can grab BPA at #9,  draft a rookie to groom later in the draft, and still fill multiple holes.

And, if you did hold off on a QB this year (not ideal, but it could happen), we would literally be able to move up to a higher spot and part with draft choices in 2024 to get our for two reasons:

1) We'd have most of our holes already filled.

2) Every drafted starter on our team would be on their rookie deal in 2024 with the exception of Moton and DJ who have already been resigned and Burns who would be FA at the end of 2023.

[Wundrbread33]

14 minutes ago, CRA said:

32 teams.  In the last two decades......only 11 QBs have won the Super Bowl.  

When a third of those were won by the Goat and a hall of fame coach, I’m not sure the point lands. 
 

Like 7 of the last 21 were Brady, which means 10 QB’s won the other 14. 
 

Now if we rephrase it as “The greatest QB of all time wins super bowls,” or “hall of fame talent QB’s win super bowls,” then sure.

 

Now we just have to do the easy thing and draft a hall of fame QB.

…or the plan could be to build the strongest roster in the most team sporty team sport, since even hall of fame QB’s lose in the playoffs every year because they don’t get the help they need from having weak teams around them. 

[CRA]

1 minute ago, Wundrbread33 said:

When a third of those were won by the Goat and a hall of fame coach, I’m not sure the point lands. 
 

Like 7 of the last 21 were Brady, which means 10 QB’s won the other 14. 
 

Now if we rephrase it as “The greatest QB of all time wins super bowls,” or “hall of fame talent QB’s win super bowls,” then sure.

 

Now we just have to do the easy thing and draft a hall of fame QB.

…or the plan could be to build the strongest roster in the most team sporty team sport, since even hall of fame QB’s lose in the playoffs every year because they don’t get the help they need from having weak teams around them. 

I don't think it lessens the point at all.  It reinforces how important the QB spot is from my vantage point.  

there were tons of better teams out there each year Brady was winning. 

and yeah, I think the point is to go find a HOF type player.  That's who can consistently compete for championships.  If you don't have that? Well, you are just praying for some obscure season playing out for you.   

[outlaw4]

If finding a franchise QB is as easy as people here make it sound, every team in the league would have one by now. There's that fantasy and the reality of not being in a great position to find someone this year. Our team isn't stacked enough to replicate what the Rams did by signing a FA QB - never mind that we may only get one shot at a run before the cap will blow up the team afterwards - and we're too far down in the draft in a year where the QB class is very thin. Obviously, take a shot at it but don't be stupid and give up everything for one guy and have nothing left over to put pieces around them. 

That said, our staff as it stands - at least on paper - may be the best we've ever had in terms of actually developing a QB who may need a bit of work. Someone other than the top two QBs may be the most realistic option and even then, we'll probably need another guy to be a bridge.

Finally, finding the guy helps a lot but it's still no guarantee. Burrow got to a SB and lost. Allen has yet to reach a SB. Herbert hasn't even won a playoff game so far. Meanwhile, we've seen guys like Goff, Jimmy G and Purdy went much further than anyone expected while backup Nick Foles actually beat Tom Brady in the big game. Basically, improve our odds the best we can given the options that are feasible.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, outlaw4 said:

If finding a franchise QB is as easy as people here make it sound, every team in the league would have one by now.  

It's not easy.  I don't think people are acting like it is easy.....they want the Panthers to start swinging. 

this whole, grab and a reject and hope one falls into your lap approach doesn't suit a lot of people.  We passed the last time a high prospect QB fell in our laps on top of that.  So even when you get that rare solar eclipse, we haven't taken advantage of it.  

[SCO96]

1 hour ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

When you have to go back 40+ years to find a reasonable sample size of teams that could win a championship with a piss poor QB you make my point for me.

You don't think the niners win two or three superbowls with a legit QB vs Jimmy?

You don't think the Panthers win Superbowl 38 with someone like Peyton Manning under center?

You think the Chiefs win yesterday's game, or even make the playoffs, with Trent Dilfer as QB?

 

Come on man.

 

None of the guys I mentioned were "piss poor quarterbacks". None were superstars but they knew to manage the game. Plukett won 2 SBs and his team were the underdogs in both of them. . They all played well win the team needed them the most. 

We'd all love to have a great QB behind center. My point that a good (not bad or below average, but good) QB can win in this league with a strong supporting cast. As great as Manning was, his teams lost by double digits in two Superbowls. Jake D played better in his loss to NE  in SB 13 than Peyton played in any of his 4 SB appearances.

And no, I don't think Dilfer would have won that game last night. But here's something interesting. Mahomes stat line was 21/27, 182 yards 3TDS and 0 INTs. He made some big plays by avoiding some sacks and scrambling that provided the margin of victory. But that you don't have to be an "ELITE QB" to put up stat-line like that. He made the plays when he needed to and he didn't make one mistake or take sack. If most teams could have their QB's play solid and mistake free football week in and week out they'll always be in contention for a championship.

We disagree a bit, but thanks for keeping things civil.

 

[Bear Hands]

30 minutes ago, SCO96 said:

People really aren't resistant to the idea that you need strong QB play to win a championship. We're resistant to the idea that giving up a several of our #1, #2 and possibly #3 draft picks in the in the 2023-2025 drafts to move up to get Bryce Young and CJ Stroud (neither is a sure bet to excel in the NFL) in the draft. 

Contrary to popular opinion, our roster is not that strong. We have some nice pieces in place. But we are not a stacked team by any measure. 

I would just defer people to what our GM and ownership has said and what their perspective seems to be.

We may not feel the defense is there yet, sure, plenty to still build up, but the people in charge think the big pieces are there. 

Fitt has reiterated his approach more than a few times.  They did defense first, then shored up the offense line, and now they think we can take the next step and get "explosive".  You cannot bank on filling virtually every hole with a plus-starter before getting playmakers, most importantly QB.  You have to just do what you need to get the guy you want at some point.  I think many are simply at that phase as fans.  They're entirely cool if that scenario happens. 

I mean, if the QB ends up looking the part, those picks are realistically what? The 3rd-4th best guys at their position group in the 24 & 25 classes? And maybe it's just next year's first.  Somewhere around pick 15 to late 20s? If the QB works out, it's not the same as missing out some on future top-10 studs.    

 

 

[Wundrbread33]

17 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't think it lessens the point at all.  It reinforces how important the QB spot is from my vantage point.  

there were tons of better teams out there each year Brady was winning. 

and yeah, I think the point is to go find a HOF type player.  That's who can consistently compete for championships.  If you don't have that? Well, you are just praying for some obscure season playing out for you.   

I mean I think it’s obvious that having a great QB gives you an advantage. 
 

I was commenting more on the simplistic “quarterbacks win championships” phrase. 
 

Mahomes recently didn’t win a Super Bowl (55) when his line failed him, and his play was greatly affected. 
 

So literally the best QB in the NFL needed help, and since the team had too glaring a weakness on the line, they didn’t get it done. And they got the doors blown off.

 

Obviously you want to seek a top 5 quarterback, but that’s like hitting the lottery no matter the round you draft them. 
 

I get what you are saying, but the phrase “quarterbacks win championships” is just so simple when reality is far more complicated than that. 
 

And that’s what makes this game so interesting to me. So many variables and complexity, masked in something so seemingly simple. 

[CRA]

 

6 minutes ago, Wundrbread33 said:

Mahomes recently didn’t win a Super Bowl (55) when his line failed him, and his play was greatly affected. 
 

So literally the best QB in the NFL needed help, and since the team had too glaring a weakness on the line, they didn’t get it done. And they got the doors blown off.

I mean, his OL didn't just fail him.  They got comically thin because of injury.  And Mahomes was still a magician that game too.   He would perform some miracle and then folks would drop the ball.   It was a complete implosion all around him. 

[SCO96]

17 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I would just defer people to what our GM and ownership has said and what their perspective seems to be.

We can't always trust what comes out of the FO though. In 2021 Matt Rhule said that his "process was working" and that the team was getting better. 

19 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

We may not feel the defense is there yet, sure, plenty to still build up, but the people in charge think the big pieces are there. 

Outside of JC Horn, Brian Burns, and possibly the surprise player of the year Frankie Luvu (100+ tackles, 7 sacks, and 1 INT) what big pieces would you say are in place?

22 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Fitt has reiterated his approach more than a few times.  They did defense first, then shored up the offense line, and now they think we can take the next step and get "explosive".  You cannot bank on filling virtually every hole with a plus-starter before getting playmakers, most importantly QB.  You have to just do what you need to get the guy you want at some point.  I think many are simply at that phase as fans.  They're entirely cool if that scenario happens. 

I'll admit he did a GREAT job on the O-line!  As I pointed out earlier that defense is suspect. If we don't add any depth in 2022 and Burns ends up missing some games we literally do not have a pass rush.

27 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I mean, if the QB ends up looking the part, those picks are realistically what? The 3rd-4th best guys at their position group in the 24 & 25 classes? And maybe it's just next year's first.  Somewhere around pick 15 to late 20s? If the QB works out, it's not the same as missing out some on future top-10 studs.

That's a big "IF". Bryce probably weighs less than most of us on this board and could get broken in half in the NFL. CJ Stroud comes from a OHIO STATE program that has NEVER produced a good pro QB the last 65 years. Yet, people feel that we need to mortgage our draft capital b/c these two "might be the guy" We can likely find a competent QB just as good as either at #9. It' like some are saying Frank Reich, McCown, and whoever we hire at OC can't win next year if we don't get Stroud or Young. A lot of us just don't see it that way.